nadia Triglot Groupie Russian Federation Joined 5516 days ago 50 posts - 98 votes Speaks: Russian*, English, French Studies: Hindi
| Message 17 of 33 24 January 2010 at 9:46am | IP Logged |
Kveldulv wrote:
I don't think you need all these obscure words to be fluent. Do you use them in your mother tongue? Do you talk about medical, philosophical and legal stuff? I almost never do, and I actively use just few everyday terms when it comes to these fields.
In order to use all this stuff you have to know what it actually means. I know what a beech is, but I don't know what it looks like, why it is better/worse than other trees, what it is used for, in a forest I wouldn't be able to spot one and say "Hey that's a beech!". When will I utter this word? In my mind, beech->tree. That's what's important, making this link. Same for obscure diseases. I may know the name because I hear it constantly but not what the disease actually is.
Why would I want to talk about legal and philosophical stuff? Maybe I'm just plain boring (and not ambitious?) ;) |
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Well, I basically agree with this view - it's not really necessary to know ALL the words a language has... But I disagree that this should discourage somebody from learning more. It wouldn't hurt to know what a beech looks like, you know. :) If ever your kid should ask you, for example. Or when you read a book, it's so much better if you can see what is described in your mind. It's the same with a language. I wouldn't be able to really enjoy English and American literature and movies, if I hadn't previously tried to reach a near native level. If I wasn't a perfectionist. You can learn a foreign language all your life - there will always be something new and it's a great hobby. If you have the time and desire to do it, way to go!
I see where the topic starter is coming from. Unless you really strive to perfect yourself and read a lot and get a lot of input and learn a lot of words, you may never come to the level where you feel confident enough speaking the language at all. I know what I'm talking about because I used to teach English. Students mostly needed it for some obscure reasons and not being really passionate, not reading enough, they ended up not being able to speak it at all -- they just spoke REALLY slowly, weren't able to express themselves properly, so I usually couldn't even understand what they wanted to say, there were so many mistakes. They just didn't have the vocabulary, grammar and expressions needed for that purpose. Though they might have done their exercises without mistakes, they couldn't use it when talking. I wouldn't be writing all this, if I had a similar view and hadn't worked really hard for many years at my English.
I studied French at a uni for 5 years and although I can read French lit in the original and understand some basic things when I watch films, I don't really feel secure enough. I couldn't write this post in French - not quickly enough, anyway, and it would be more primitive. I never worked that hard at French and never tried to attain a really high level. I just didn't have the time, English took it all. But I hope to really improve it in future.
My mum used to tell me similar things when she saw I was putting down words like "dilapidated" in my notebooks. She said smth to the effect, you'll never need it. But it turned out a lot of those words I came across later in other books/movies/tv programmes, so it's kinda hard to decide which words are gonna come in useful and which aren't. You are just not gonna go far with such attitude.
Edited by nadia on 24 January 2010 at 9:48am
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hombre gordo Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5585 days ago 184 posts - 247 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Japanese Studies: Portuguese, Korean
| Message 18 of 33 24 January 2010 at 9:46am | IP Logged |
Siberiano wrote:
I think I should comment only the words said, not the context. This seems innocent to me. She just expressed her concern about your benefit/costs of learning Japanese up to that level. Your is a great achievement, but question whether it's really needed is a legitimate one.
hombre gordo, I may be wrong but it seems that the reason you make such a deal of this is that you don't like that she disapproved of what you do. I can't be certain - maybe you were writing this and having fun with this story, but the way you put it makes me think like this. I hope I'm wrong.
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Oh dont get me wrong! I am not making a big deal out of this. I dont even think she disaproved of me! I dont even see any kind of ulterior motive or anything in her reaction. I actually really like this women.
I just found it so odd how a person with language experience herself would hold such an idea on language learning. I was always under the impression that if you live in a foreign country for a long term period, you have to learn so much just to survive.
Maybe the reason I have such perfectionist ideas on language learning is just the fact that I believe in quality over quantity. I want full functioning in all my languages.
To the other posters, you may not want to use medical, scientific or philosophical words in conversations in your target language, but I dont think it is a bad idea to at least get a passive knowledge of them. You can control what you say but you cannot control what your interlocutor says. You may bump into such terms in conversation. Anyone could end up in hospital or have a run with the law. If you are in the country long term it may be wise to learn vocabulary from these fields.
Edited by hombre gordo on 24 January 2010 at 9:50am
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Kveldulv Senior Member Italy Joined 6955 days ago 222 posts - 244 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Italian*
| Message 19 of 33 24 January 2010 at 11:51am | IP Logged |
nadia wrote:
Well, I basically agree with this view - it's not really necessary to know ALL the words a language has... But I disagree that this should discourage somebody from learning more. It wouldn't hurt to know what a beech looks like, you know. :) If ever your kid should ask you, for example. Or when you read a book, it's so much better if you can see what is described in your mind. It's the same with a language. I wouldn't be able to really enjoy English and American literature and movies, if I hadn't previously tried to reach a near native level. If I wasn't a perfectionist. You can learn a foreign language all your life - there will always be something new and it's a great hobby. If you have the time and desire to do it, way to go!
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Don't get me wrong, sometimes I do feel guilty about not knowing what a word actually stands for - that's fine as long as it isn't language related (weird plants, obscure diseases, legal procedures). I may know the words but not what's really behind them, that's fine. Язык тут не причем.
I normally watch and enjoy stuff like this and understand every single word in it. And read stuff like http://bash.org.ru/. That's what I want do with my languages - understand puns, jokes, curses and every TV series I like almost perfectly and use this kind of language. I want to be as foolish as I am in Italian ))).
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vientito Senior Member Canada Joined 6340 days ago 212 posts - 281 votes
| Message 20 of 33 24 January 2010 at 3:47pm | IP Logged |
why don't you just wait til an obscure word that comes up and then you proceed to learn it? No use keep preparing for something that you may never encounter.
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Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5523 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish*
| Message 21 of 33 24 January 2010 at 7:34pm | IP Logged |
Kveldulv wrote:
I normally watch and enjoy stuff like this and understand every single word in it. |
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You mean in English? Because South Park is American, isn't it?
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Kveldulv Senior Member Italy Joined 6955 days ago 222 posts - 244 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Italian*
| Message 22 of 33 24 January 2010 at 9:17pm | IP Logged |
Actually not much in English, but I've been watching over and over again all the series in Russian for quite a few months now. And the movie in the obscene translation by goblin. Actually every movie he translated.
Sorry for hijacking the thread.
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dragonflyy Newbie United States Joined 5563 days ago 7 posts - 14 votes Speaks: English*
| Message 23 of 33 25 January 2010 at 4:53pm | IP Logged |
Quote:
I just found it so odd how a person with language experience herself would hold such an idea on language learning. |
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Actually, I find this view pretty common among people who have studied foreign languages. It's because they understand how much effort goes into learning a language, and they have a personal appreciation for what you went through. Whereas, people who speak only one language don't have the same point of reference... Was this woman fluent in English? She was probably just impressed, and didn't mean anything by it.
Also, as every native speaker of English knows... there's a bit of a double standard-- people wonder why you would try so hard to learn another language in the first place, when you already speak English. That's why some people, especially other native English speakers, develop these strange ideas that you must be "obsessed" with the foreign culture, or that you want to be something you're not. There's always this feeling like you have to explain and justify yourself. It's easy to feel frustration over this, but the sooner we let go of these feelings, the better. You don't have to prove anything to anybody except yourself.
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translator2 Senior Member United States Joined 6921 days ago 848 posts - 1862 votes Speaks: English*
| Message 24 of 33 25 January 2010 at 6:10pm | IP Logged |
RE: South Park in Russian link.
Why are Russian films often dubbed over the English soundtrack? Very distracting.
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