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Kanewai 2015: Team Caesar | ||
Tags: Super Challenge | Catalan | Ancient Greek | Turkish | Polyglot | Arabic | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | Italian | Japanese | French | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4881 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 145 of 331 24 May 2013 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Balzac Balzac Everwhere
Some day I'll have to try and read Balzac again - I keep seeing references to him in films and other books. The latest was in Les cousins (1959), where a bookstore owner complains that nobody in Paris reads Balzac anymore, that all the kids want is detective stories and porn. I can't tell if people drop his name just to sound intellectual, or if he really is that fantastic and my French isn't good enough to get it. I'm certainly ready for some detective stories, though maybe not French porn (although ... Un chant d'amour (Jean Genet, 1950) was pretty intense ... ), and Fred Vargas novels are available on Amazon in the US. I don't know which one to start with, so I might just choose one at random. I made it through 300 pages of Au Bonheur des Dames. I only had 120 pages left, but it's a slow read and would've taken me two weeks more to finish - and I was ready to move on. About 75% of the book was a description of the store, the sales, the fabrics, and the 'new economy,' - the characters were all secondary. I cheated and read the ending on-line. And now I've finally started À la recherche du temps perdu (Marcel Proust). I meant to read something light, I really did ... I just wanted to read a few pages of Proust to see how it was. And then oops I was in deep. ελληνικά Greek has been very time consuming. I have the first ten lines of the Iliad memorized, and I understand the first twenty. Talk about slow going! That translates into three months of work to read one page. Spanish On hold one more week. and for those who are tempted to click on the Jean Genet link ... it's a silent film, so you don't get any Super Challenge credit for it! It also has some very explicit scenes (it was banned in France and the US), so you've been warned.  Edited by kanewai on 25 May 2013 at 9:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4881 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 146 of 331 25 May 2013 at 12:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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À la recherche du temps perdu
Du côté de chez Swann Combray I un baiser de ses yeux Oh my Proust's writing is beautiful. I read half of Swann's Way in English a couple years ago. I made it through the first two parts (Combray I and II), but stalled in the third (Swann in Love). I enjoyed it, and don't remember why I didn't finish it, but told myself that one day I would try it again. It's something else entirely in French - so far Combray I is dreamy and funny and sad. It's also surprisingly easy to read. The sentences are long and winding, but the vocabulary is much easier than it is in Hugo, Balzac, and Zola. There's pure poetry - I need to re-read a lot of passages to understand them (the narrator describes his body as a gardiens fidèles d'un passé que mon esprit n'aurait jamais dû oublier, a faithful guardian of a past that my spirit would never be able to forget), but it's a pleasure to re-read them, and to let them wash over me. There are also a lot of comic sections - I wasn't expecting this at all. Here are some of the passages I've highlighted, just in the first dozen pages:
The hope of being consoled gave him the courage to suffer
It's another type of life that we lead at Tansonville, at Madame Saint-Loups, another type of pleasure that I find in only leaving at night, in following by the light of the moon the roads where I had previously played in the sun, and the room where I would sleep instead of dressing for dinner, which I can see from far off, as we return, crossed by the flames of the lamp, a lone lighthouse in the night
She was so humble of heart, and so gentle that the tenderness she felt for others, and the little care she gave to her own person and her own suffering, hiding it all behind a smile where, unlike what we see in most people, there was no sense of irony except towards herself, and for all of us her regard was like a kiss from her eyes; she wasn't able to look at those she cherished without passionately caressing them with her gaze.
Already a man in my cowardice, I did what we all do, once we are grown, when we see suffering and injustice: I chose not to see them. Edited by kanewai on 25 May 2013 at 10:41pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4881 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 147 of 331 06 June 2013 at 6:21am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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French versus Spanish
I'm back from a quick trip to Montréal and Vermont. I didn't get as much language practice as I wanted, but had plenty of time to read on the flights there and back. I was actually a bit frustrated with my French the first few days. I was stumbling over the most basic phrases, and no one seemed to be able to understand a word I said. It wasn't just the Quebeçoois, either - it was Europeans, too. Everyone just switched to English automatically, and I was usually to self conscious to insist on French. It was even more frustrating when I met a guy from Columbia, and was able to have a decent conversation with him ... in Spanish. It's strange: I know significantly more French than Spanish, but when it comes to small talk my French is horrible. I don't know if this is because Spanish is just easier to pronounce, or if it's because I've spent far more time in Spanish-speaking places than French-speaking places in my life. There's only one solution I can see: I need to spend more time in Paris. Or Nice, or Marseilles ... I need to be immersed. If they only weren't all so far away! I did better when I spent a morning browsing bookstores (a thousand thanks for the reviews, Songlines! in the Latin Quarter. All of the owners and workers there let me speak French, and were patient while I searched for the right word or expression. And what wonderful bookstores they were. I remember when we used to have them in every city, back once upon a time. I visited three: La Librarie du Square (a small neighborhood bookstore); Planète BD (graphic novels everywhere, and not at all like the geeky US comic book stores); and Librairie Michel Fortin (language geek heaven - Songlines). And I spent lots of money, and I now that I'm home I wish that I had spent even more. My haul should keep me busy for awhile. I picked up books from four modern authors that were on my reading list: Mémoires d'Hadrien (Marguerite Yourcenar, 1951), L'écume des jours (Boris Vian, 1947), La vie mode d'emploi (Georges Perec, 1978), and L'homme à l'envers (Fred Vargas, 1999). I had never heard of Fred Vargas until people on HTLAL started talking about her. I read half of L'homme on the plane home, and it's been a fun read. The story is set in the south of France, where a very large rogue wolf has been killing lambs. Some of the villagers are convinced it's a loup-garou, and tensions are rising. The writing level is similar to the middle Harry Potter books, so it's an accessible novel for language learners. I also bought two bandes dessinées, a Persepolis integral edition, and L'Amérique ou Le Disparu ( Réal Godbout, 2013), based upon an unfinished novel by Kafka. I saw L'Amèrique in the windows of lots of stores, so thought that must be the new 'big' bd. Turns out it was being promoted because it was drawn and written by a local professor. We'll see if it's good. Did you all read how Chicago public schools recently ordered that Persepolis be removed from the classroom? It was always on my reading list, but even more so after this. Integral editions are hard to find; I'm glad I found one. There were so many more that I wanted to buy, but bd are as expensive in the stores as they are online. All this, and I'm still only 150 pages or so into Proust (it's hard to count pages on the kindle). His language is dreamy, but it's a slow, slow read. I've got aways to go. And it's also time for me to shift more attention to Spanish - I have one month before I head to Peru. I don't want to switch: I'm enjoying the progress I am making in French. I see a lot of discussions on HTLAL on balancing multiple languages. I find that I can do it at the beginning level of learning, 0 >> A, and A >> B, but have been surprised at how challenging it's been to juggle multiple languages at the B >> C progression. This requires such massive amounts of native material input; there just isn't enough time in the day to do two properly. Next update: My first thoughts on Spanish Pimsleur IV, Assimil Perfectionnement Espagnol, duck gizzards, and blue butterflies in the stomach. Edited by kanewai on 06 June 2013 at 6:24am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 songlines Pro Member Canada flickr.com/photos/cp Joined 5201 days ago 729 posts - 1056 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French Personal Language Map | Message 148 of 331 09 June 2013 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
You're very welcome - glad the info. came in useful! La Librarie du Square was also on my wishlist, but it was closed when I was in the area, and I didn't have time to make a return visit. I'll have to try again next time... We're both currently reading a couple of the same authors, by the way: I have the first of the Fred Vargas (The Three Evangelists/ Debout les morts), and also Tome 4 of Persepolis (having finished the first three volumes). Time to do an overdue post on my log about a couple of other BD discoveries too. Intrigued by the duck gizzards and blue butterflies... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4881 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 149 of 331 10 June 2013 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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French
My brother-in-law goes to Paris a lot for work (and he doesn't even like it ... the good things are spoiled on him!), and uses Word Lens to help him. It's an "augmented reality translation application" for smart phones - you point the phone at a word, and it translates the word into English (or your TL). It's pretty amazing. However, it works better for words, not phrases or lots of text. Pages of print seem to confuse it. It's probably better for menus, signs, and things with large print. It would have helped me in Montréal, where I accidently ordered my poutine with confit of duck gizzard. I'm back to reading French rather than actively studying it. And I'm thinking, maybe that's ok. I don't have a lot of opportunities to speak French, and it might be more realistic to aim for reading fluency, and possibly movie/tv comprehension. And then, when I have the chance to go back to Europe or North Africa I'll reactivate it. It's also fun that there are a couple of us reading some of the same books. This is so much a better book club than Oprah's! L'homme à l'envers (Fred Vargas, 1999)- The first part of the book was great, and tightly plotted, as the wolf (if it's a wolf) moves from killing sheep to killing people, but the middle part feels a bit aimless. Not much happens - it's as if Vargas had to deliver a 300 page novel, but only had 200 pages of material. From one review on Amazon: Un bon début, une bonne fin, mais dans le centre, je m'ennuie. I'm on the final third now, and it seems to be picking up again. Du côte de chez Swann (Marcel Proust, 1913) - I've read two different ways to read Proust. One camp says the key is to go slow, to only read a couple pages at a time, and to savor each little bite. The other camp says to read it fast (per Oprah's Book Club: f you want to finish Marcel Proust's In Search of Lost Time, here is the secret: Read fast. Read for plot—though you won't understand what the plot is until the end). At this point, 250 pages in, there really hasn't been much plot at all, so I don't understand Oprah's camp at all. And I'm all for taking time; this feels much more like reading a book of poetry than reading a novel. Also, the sentences are so long and dreamlike, and he moves so effortlessly between scenes (somehow we move from his aunt's bedroom to a church to a hawthorn grove without ever noticing the transition) that I get completlely lost if I rush. And I do need to be focused when I read Proust. I also get lost if there is any interruption, or if I'm tired, or distracted at all. He's not hard to read, he just requires complete immersion in his world. Persepolis (Marjane Satrapi, 2000). I'm very happy I found a complete edition (with all four volumes). It's divided into smaller, four to five page chapters, so it's a perfect read when I only have fifteen minutes to kill. ελληνικά I have about fifteen lines of the Iliad memorized. I might let Greek rest a while, and then re-focus on it during August's 6WC. Spanish This is my month to immerse myself in Spanish. I'm approaching it from a handful of angles: Pimsleur IV. to Lesson 9. I downloaded this from audible.com, where it costs five credits (about $70). For this price, it's a fantastic course. I felt that Pimsleur III was a bit weak; I'm much happier with this fourth level. The dialogues feel more natural, there's less useless repetition, and there's a nice mix of tenses in each lesson. The only drawback so far with audible is that I can't share the program. Although most people who I've tried to share with never actually do the program, so maybe it's not an issue. Assimil Perfectionnement Espagnol. to Lesson 3. I had a hard time reading the French and then translating it into Spanish. I usually don't have a problem with interference, but it was hitting hard here. The first lesson was rough! The next two each got easier; I think I just needed time to mentally transition from working on French to working on Spanish. FSI Volume 3 - on Lesson 37. This section deals with subjunctive phrases in dependent clauses. I'm not ready for it! Maybe in another week. Isabel - I'm almost finished with the season. They're still filming the second season, so I don't know when it will be released in the US. Drama Fever is expanding their Latin selection, so it should be easy to find another show to watch. I also have a great example of the dangers of Google translate - a text from a Columbian friend, who's English is not that good, saying my soul is full of blue butterflies. It sounds sad. I'm assuming that this is something idiomatic in Spanish that didn't survive the translation at all. Edited by kanewai on 10 June 2013 at 10:07pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5524 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 150 of 331 10 June 2013 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
My first Vargas story was Salut et liberté, which was a tight short story. Vargas sketched the characters with admirable efficiency, given the limits of length. In the two longer books I tried (one finished, one in progress), she sometimes runs into a weird problem: her books are driven by wonderful characters, and she can sketch a character brilliantly in a few pages. But once she has interesting characters, they either need to drive events in the story (which should ideally follow from their quirks) or need to undergo personal change. But sometimes she settles for somewhat static interactions that merely emphasize an already thorough characterization. Fortunately, everything I've read so far has ended well. Still, all that said, I love her books. There's tons of great writing, and she's always warmly sympathetic to her oddball characters. Edited by emk on 10 June 2013 at 11:07pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4881 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 151 of 331 12 June 2013 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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You might want to skip L'homme then! You nailed the first parts of the book:
she laid out the situation brilliantly, and introduced a lot of interesting characters. Then there was a long static period like you described. The last third felt more like a traditional detective story. The pace picked up, and I finished the last 100 pages in two days - and then came an awful and unrealistic final resolution. This was her second book, and it looks like she gets better reviews on Goodreads and Amazon for the books that came later. Also, I've been searching for foreign-language audio books on audible.com, but all I found were children's books, lots of Scientology / L Ron Hubbard novels, and translations of 50 Shades of Grey into every language imaginable. I can't imagine anything more painful. edit: ok, I just noticed on the twitter challenge bot that you already read L' homme a l'envers. Edited by kanewai on 13 June 2013 at 5:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4881 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 152 of 331 14 June 2013 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I'm still trying to find a balance for the next couple weeks ... right now I've started
about seven books (two French novels, two Spanish, two BD, and an English audio book). That, on top of Pimsleur, FSI, and Assimil. As much as I'd like to lie around the house all day reading, there is this pesky job I do, and friends to have drinks with, and the surf is looking good this summer. This list might look impressive, until you realize that I've only read the first chapter of some of these books. Du côte de chez Swann. I picked up a hard English copy at the library to help me with the difficult passages ... and was shocked to see that I was only on page 160 (it's hard to tell the page number on the kindle). And Proust has started to show his darker side. We've gone from dipping madelines in tea, long walks while the hawthorn trees bloom, and gossiping with his eccentric aunts to spying on his lesbian neighbor while she makes love. Yeah. I didn't see that coming at all. Mémoires d'Hadrien. Marguerite Yourcenar,1951. I wanted to balance Proust with something fun, and I love Roman history. This novel, about the life of the Emperor Hadrian, makes a lot of lists of "Best French novels." So far, though, it's heavier reading than I anticipated. I might save it for later. Bandes dessinées: Marjane is seeing the dark side of revolution as her relatives flee the new Islamic Republic, and war is declared with Iraq, by the end of the first book of Persèpolis. And in Algiers, all the girls are excited by the arrival of Le Malka des Lions in the second book of Le chat du rabbin. I'm enjoying both immensely. Harry Potter y la Orden del Fénix. I've had this on my kindle for months. I'm frustrated with how much I struggle with reading the Spanish. I try and remind myself that I was slow with French at this point also - it took me four weeks to read Le petit prince. Still, I don't think I have the patience for 1000 pages, not at this pace. Harry Potter will wait a bit longer. El capitán Alatriste. Arturo Pérez Reverte, Spain, 1996. This is a simple swashbuckler, and I'm not expecting much more than a fun ride. I have a hard copy in English from the library, and I'm treating it like a parallel text. also: Pimsleur IV. The first ten lessons were great. Lesson 12 makes me worry for the rest of the series ... it' s like the course took a few humongous steps back. The whole lesson was on things like "it's raining" and "I want a blue umbrella" and "I want to send an electronic message (mensage electronico) to my son." This one really irritated me ... I cannot believe that Spaniards say mensage electronico for email. It's too much. I hope that lesson 12 was a one-off, and the rest of the course is better. Assimil. Ahh Assimil. I like you, but you irritate the f--- out of me sometimes. Lesson 5 introduced a young couple who meet cute, and start a romance. I hope it ends soon. I hated, and I mean hated, the insipid romantic story that Assimil had in Using French. FSI. We're at a cocktail party, and the Lieutenant's wife is stressed that her maid has not shown up yet. She has had such a hard day. It was so hard to get good help in 1954. The men are drinking whisky, and oblivious to it all. and in the news ... I learned that the Spanish for gay lobby is le lobby gay, which is somewhat disappointing. I was hoping for something more fun to say, to amuse and amaze my friends. (The pope's actual remarks: Se habla del “lobby gay”, y es verdad, está ahí). And this: Turkish protesters in Taksim sing "Do You Hear the People Sing" from Les Mis in Turkish and English: Chapuller Choir 1 person has voted this message useful |
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