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Writing practice. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| Entoursis Diglot Newbie Australia Joined 3758 days ago 5 posts - 5 votes Speaks: Russian*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 1 of 11 20 August 2014 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hello.
My question is related to the very beginning of language learning (when vocabularly is limited to 1000 words or less). Reading and listening is relatively straightforward to practice - just sit and read and write, use a dictionary, and try to use material which is appropriate for beginners (so reading does not turn into "delve through dictionaries" nightmare). However, I find it difficult to practice language writing. Firstly, it is not that obvious what to actually write about. I have tried several approaches here, like making up questions and answering them to myself, describing pictures etc, but it is not really effective and I end up writing about some nonsence. Secondly, the problem is limited vocabularly. Regardless of what people say (that 300-500 words is actually enough to find what to say in general situation), I find it extremely limitative to have vocabulary under 3000-4000 words. So limitative that I am forced to open a dictionary every second-third word I write (maybe it is also due to lack of practice and inability to quickly pick up a required word from my brain). And finally the last problem I find significant is limited grammar practice. When one practices a language, they want to interact with vast majority of grammar topics and units (e.g., I would like to practice both present, past and future tenses, occasionally conditional expressions, so that I learn how to use all of these). However, I find it hard to organise the practice in such a way. For example, when I used to practice in describing pictures, I used present tense only (which makes sence but still, it is not what we want) and primarily expressed thoughts with "to be" constructions, like "The picture is nice", "It is dark", "It is also made in black-and-white" etc, i.e. all sentences are of the same type. Eventually it starts to annoy me, and I try to rephrase my sentences in a different way (in most cases, using Russian or English, not the target language, to build the sentence in my brain in the first place to be then translated and wasting lots of time to actually trying to recall what kind of sentence structures are there that I haven't practised for long), and this results in working hardly to make a task for myself rather than solving it. I am curious what kind of method other people use to practice writing. How do you make it effective and how do you avoid problems like limited vocabulary and necessity to look up new words every 5 seconds? Thank you in advance, Anton P.S. My question assumes studying the language on one's own and with limited material (for example, for some African languages there is just a dictionary and grammar book, no practice books etc.). I believe that using special practice books, which are available for most popular languages and have specific writing tasks and all necessary vocabulary listed on the same page, or practicing with a tutor who can translare unfamiliar words for you as you meet them in the text, would be a solution. Sadly, this is not always applicable. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4697 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 2 of 11 20 August 2014 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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In the beginning you can't avoid looking up new words, so you do. I, find, however,
that writing is a skill best left for a bit later. I recommend a tutor for formal writing - I have done so in French, for example. When you are writing, keep in mind that it's not a way to practice your grammar rule knowledge. Grammar is a tool you use to write a coherent sentence. So when you're writing, keep in mind what you want to write, why you are writing it and whom you are writing it for. For example, I translated my MSc thesis' summary into French, which requires a specific style. I have also written articles based off of complex scientific topics that I vulgarised in order for a larger audience to be able to understand them. I have similarly done so with literary texts. Here what you do is not practice tense usage but you practice writing a coherent sentence structure. In French, writing correctly is an art (and not one that I have mastered), but one thing I would advise you to research: - linking words. Texts read awfully if you keep using "mais", so you have to find 10 ways of saying "but" in a text. In English you'll know of a few equivalents, but in French it doesn't always work the same way (you can't use parce que when starting a sentence, for example; you have to use puisque or comme or something else). - Learn strategies to avoid repetition. In English you often use "it' as a dummy, or sometimes it even gets left out; in French you often use the pronouns en and y in these situations. I find that I do very little writing outside of texting until I've hit about B1. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5522 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 3 of 11 20 August 2014 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to delay writing until you reach B1 or so, if you're so inclined. At A1, your only choices are to either regurgitate minor variations of example phrases, or to butcher the language horribly. And once you reach a solid B2, it gets really hard to find helpful correctors, because if you're careful, all your mistakes will be "Well, that's not how I would say it. A bit unnatural, perhaps?" And lots of native speakers simply can't correct texts at that level. (If you find somebody who can, treat them very well!)
Anyway, for detailed advice on learning to write, you might also be interested in my old post on using lang-8. A lot of this probably also applies to correction sites like italki, too. The general advice: write short passages often, try to write about subjects you'd like to able to speak about, and try really hard to write as well as you can, even including fiddly details like punctuation, because that will get you the best correctors. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4089 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 4 of 11 20 August 2014 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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If I don't know a word or if I feel unsure about some grammar, I look it up. That is not something I try to avoid. On the contrary, I find that it's an excellent and particularly memorable exercise. What else am I supposed to do? Just sit around hoping to learn this particular word or this particular rule some other way?
As for coming up with topics to write about, I personally loathe writing prompts. I have done my fair share of that sort of thing in school, thanks. Not to mention as a ghostwriter. That's why I prefer the "personal blog" route for language practice. I write about my day, my experiences, my feelings, work, Swedish customs, cooking, exercise, life extension, interesting architecture that I encounter, people I have known, gardening, home renovation, my dogs, immigration, sustainable living, plumbing, and so on and so forth. I doesn't have to actually be a blog. You could be writing for a tutor or to submit to one of the dozen sites dedicated to correcting the texts of language learners. I find that this method teaches me the vocabulary I need to talk about things that I am likely to need to talk to natives about. I also find that the grammar necessary is quite varied. The downside is that if you don't get much conversation exercise elsewhere this method does not let you practice the meet-n-greet side of the language. Another type of beginner's writing practice that I have enjoyed is simply engaging with people online. If you are on Facebook, you can join some groups and add to the discussion. If you follow any blogs or read any online magazines in your target language, you can start commenting there. The brevity of these exercises means that you won't have much chance to repeat yourself and get irritated. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arnaud25 Diglot Senior Member France Joined 3832 days ago 129 posts - 235 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Russian | Message 5 of 11 20 August 2014 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
"Puisque" and "parce que" don't have exactly the same meaning, you can't use one for another. Edited by Arnaud25 on 20 August 2014 at 5:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4697 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 6 of 11 20 August 2014 at 8:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
I was taught not to use parce que to start a sentence when I was at the AF. Puisque doesn't always cover the meaning, I agree, but we have comme or other things for that. I never said it was a like-for-like trade. In speech, you are absolutely right of course. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Radioclare Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom timeofftakeoff.com Joined 4573 days ago 689 posts - 1119 votes Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian | Message 7 of 11 20 August 2014 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I always struggle to decide what to write about but Sprachprofi has a really
comprehensive list of topics to choose from on her website. My ambition is to be disciplined enough to sit down and write about one of these topics every day in Croatian, but so far I've never managed to achieve that. Back in the old days I learned a lot of German from writing to a penpal. They didn't often explicitly correct what I wrote, but I learned a lot from reading what they wrote back to me and imitating their expressions. There are so many useful resources on the internet these days that I guess no one needs penpals any more, but I do sometimes miss the days of pen and paper! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| robarb Nonaglot Senior Member United States languagenpluson Joined 5049 days ago 361 posts - 921 votes Speaks: Portuguese, English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, French Studies: Mandarin, Danish, Russian, Norwegian, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Greek, Latin, Nepali, Modern Hebrew | Message 8 of 11 21 August 2014 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Looking up lots of words is OK, but I agree with several people above that it's not that useful to practice writing
until you have learned several thousand words of vocabulary. You want to be able to express almost anything you want to in a familiar topic, using mostly words that you would have understood had you read someone else use them, even if you need to look them up to remember how to say something. This is important because you'll have a sense of whether your text is (close to) correct, which you won't have if you're using a lot of completely unfamiliar words pulled from a dictionary. I prefer to write about 100-400 words at a time, 2/3 "personal blog" about things I've done recently, and about 1/3 commentary on books/movies/news/music that I've recently read or heard. I find this is a nice diverse balance that covers most of the things I want to be able to talk about. I'd try this, and if you find it hard, try doing a few in your native language. If you really can't bring yourself to compose content, you could try translating, but it's not exactly the same exercise. Don't worry about practicing all the grammar points; just try to express some content. Some of the content will naturally be about the past, present, future, hypothetical events, frequent events, etc. For example, if you explain an article you recently read, you would use the past tense to talk about your experience reading it or where you found it. If the article is about something that is planned, you'll need conditionals and futures. If it's about something that happened, you'll need past and present. You'll naturally practice most the grammar that you need to express yourself. Some example writing practice in my blog, link under my name. italki is decent for corrections; a friend is better. Googling or asking on forums about sentences you're unsure of is also a good substitute for corrections. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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