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Kuji’s Krazy Log II | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4837 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 249 of 706 10 July 2013 at 2:28am | IP Logged | |||||
I'm going to retract something I said in the last post:
After what happened to me this morning, I now don't think it is necessary to add a sentence fragment or a sentence to such words in Anki to get the nuances. I was reading in a DLI Portuguese Basic lesson this morning, and I saw a lot of the words that I had mined from that lesson a few days ago and put into Anki. I put them in as single words or collocations, and I found that as I read, I understood the words I saw, plus seeing them in context helped me to almost instantly get a deeper understanding of the words. What stuck out was the Portuguese word dar para (yeah, I know it's actually two words!). Dar means "to give" and para means "for", "to", etc. But dar para together have a variety of meanings, depending on the context, for example, "to look out or to have a view of something" or "to be possible/able to do something", among others. I put a bunch of information on the back side of the Anki card, but I still had trouble with dar para while doing reviews. I had to fail it a few times before I passed it the first time. I was wondering if I need to add a sentence to the front of this card, instead of just dar para. However, while reading in DLI, I came across this short dialog: A: O quarto dá para a rua? B: Dá. I found that I almost instantly understood this exchange. "Does the room look out onto the road/Does the room have a view of the road?" "Yes, it does." Excellent! Now I bet that next time dar para comes up in Anki, I will have a better understanding of it. Those that promote using only sentences in Anki would probably say, "If you are having trouble with dar para on your Anki card, why not just put O quarto dá para a rua? instead?" Well, yes, I could put that sentence on a card, review it, and I would probably pass it easier. But I think that this also proves that you don't have to add a sentence, especially if you don't have access to nice, catchy, trustworthy sentences, or if you want to save time making and reviewing cards, or you find sentences distracting in your SRS. Even though I failed the dar para card a few times, something worked, because I understood the phrase when I saw it while reading. And that brings me to the caveat I found out about doing words and collocations in Anki: you should be reading or otherwise exposing yourself to the target language to get the best benefit out of using words on flashcards. I have a better understanding of dar para because I put it on a flashcard, and I saw it while reading. I noticed this with some Japanese words as well. I'm seeing and hearing words on TV that I recently put in my flashcards, and I have an improved understanding of those words. If I didn't get that outside exposure, I wouldn't have a good understanding of those words. I guess that if you really don't have the time to read in your target language, or you don't have access to materials because you can't afford it, or you don't have access to the Internet, etc., then it can be a good idea to put only sentences into your SRS software. Your software could serve as a sort of graded reader in that situation. But if you are engaging in material in your L2, you don't need to do "the sentence method" so much. Put words/collocations into your SRS, get your reviews done, and quickly move to your articles/novels/comics/movies/TV shows/textbooks and enjoy those. Of course, this is just my opinion. Everybody is different. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6587 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 250 of 706 10 July 2013 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm not so sure the flashcard has helped. dar para is a fairly transparent expression in this meaning, when you have the context.
Also, you seem to be trying to decide on the same strategy for all languages. But obviously with Portuguese it's easier to rely on single word cards than with Japanese which is the language of a very different culture and where you'll be dealing with subtle nuances more because your level is higher. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4837 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 251 of 706 11 July 2013 at 8:30am | IP Logged | |||||
Serpent, I love it when you post here in my thread! You always speak honestly and directly; I like hearing various opinions and thoughts. They help me to think about what I believe more and further formulate my own opinions and thoughts. I think the flashcard did help somewhat; for me, I would not have known what that sentence means had I not studied dar para on a flashcard or any other method. I would not have been able to understand it solely by context. (I would have been thinking, "The room....WHAT?...the road? What could the room do to the road? Sit next to the road? Hug the road?") I had a vague idea of the meaning of dar para, and seeing it in that sentence, in that context, helped me to clearly understand the words, at least in that context.
You're right; Japanese IS a language of a very different culture, and the language clearly reflects that. I have been trying to do the same thing for all of my languages. To use an analogy, it seems easier to me to just have one sword and a set of techniques and skills, and then go out and attack all my enemies using that sword and those skills. It's less for me to think about. But yeah, it may not be the most efficient way to go about things. I might be able to take out a group of enemies with my sword, but a cannon might be better against that well-armed army, while a sword might be too much to take out the wimp down the road, when a nice uppercut would do. Today I was reading through a parent-teacher newsletter that my school puts out every month. I saw some of the words that I studied in Anki as single words. But at the same time, I noticed that my reading speed seemed slower. I was focusing on two, three kanji or characters at a time, and that was slowing me down. I wonder if it is because I have been focusing on single words in Anki. I'm wondering if, for a language like Japanese, even though you don't necessarily need to put sentences into Anki to learn a word, you do need them if you want to increase your reading skills. Or do you just need to read more? As you can tell, I'm still confused and indecisive. And if you read my entire log, you will notice that I am the most indecisive guy here at HTLAL. This log will drive you crazy if you read it, I'm warning you. In fact, you might want to stop reading now. Don't worry about my popularity ratings. :) You know what I just thought of while typing this? I have learned a lot of Japanese words since last year because of Anki. And my reading speed and skills did increase. I now read faster and recognize more words than ever before. And I was using the "sentence method." Why did I ever feel the need to change what I'm doing? This all started because a teacher pointed out to me that the sentence I had in my Anki deck was unnatural. What if it is only that sentence? What if any mistakes I have in my Anki decks will "naturally" sort themselves out over time? (I don't believe in the concept of "fossilization." When I was ten years old, I got rid of the strong southern American accent I used to have.) Another reason I stopped doing sentences is because I felt like I was using too much time hunting for sentences and making Anki cards. Was I just lazy? They say that making the flashcards is part of the learning process. Just making flashcards will help you get a deeper knowledge of a word or phrase. I do believe that. So is it wasted time? Maybe not? I don't know. I guess my strategy will keep evolving, and I'll keep doing this dance until I get it right, even if it does take me until 2021. (Hopefully I'll be fluent in Japanese by then.) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5252 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 252 of 706 11 July 2013 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Kuji, Malcolm X wasn't talking about language learning when he said "by any means necessary" but it can be applied to language learning. Whatever works for you, use it, or use a combination of techniques. Single words, sentences, it doesn't have to be either/or, does it? Perhaps some sort of balance between the two would be optimum. Japanese is one of the harder languages to master for Westerners and it will most likely require an "all fronts assault" strategy. Anki is one of the weapons you are using. Just don't let it overwhelm the other weapons in your arsenal. Try to remember that it should work for you, not the other way around. Don't let the process overwhelm the desired result.
You're really clicking with your language learning now. As the Brits say, "you've almost got it sussed". In basketball, when a team starts getting comfortable and playing "not to lose", the opponent begins to catch up to them. The momentum shifts. The main thing is to keep your momentum going, by "any means necessary". This becomes even more important in the intermediate stage when the victories are more subtle and gradual than they were in the beginning. You'll win this game, I have no doubt. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6587 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 253 of 706 11 July 2013 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
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kuji ftw!!!!! :)
2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4837 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 254 of 706 11 July 2013 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
As always, iguanamon, thank you for the encouragement. I think my biggest "enemy" right now is my urge to tinker with what is working. Sometimes I take that to extremes, when all I need to be doing is putting my head down and study the language. I think that is what all too often happens to me. That balance you were talking about, iguanamon? I've had that, and it was working. I put both single words and sentences into Anki, depending on the circumstances. Yet a few times I've tried to change what I do with Anki - usually when a glitch or small problem happens, such as a few bad flashcards. If I find that a sentence in my deck of cards is unnatural, I should just change the card, not redo the entire system, which brings added stress, I think. I go way overboard sometimes. Like my grandmother used to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Keep on keepin' on." By the way, you made me want to rent the Malcolm X movie with Denzel Washington. That has to be one of my all-time favorite movies. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4837 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 255 of 706 11 July 2013 at 3:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
I see I already made you crazy, Serpent. I tell you, this log is dangerous! :) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4655 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 256 of 706 11 July 2013 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
Me too. It's so much easier to formulate strategies and compose timetables and think up grand schemes and post here on HTLAL :-). Actually sitting down and doing some studying is always harder. (It's OK: I'm allowed to post, I've just planted 100 new words on memrise and I'm going to mine some sentences from a textbook soon :-)). If you were worried that your sentence deck was unreliable then eliminating it eliminates that worry. If you find you need the sentence method in the future then you now know that you need to be more careful of the source (or at least keep a note of it). You're making great progress and that's what it's all about. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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