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BAnna’s TAC 2014 Spaß-Lobo-IndRussian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4615 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 209 of 236 28 August 2014 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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August SC Grammar Summary-German (Special Subjunctive-Konjunktiv I)
The Special Subjunctive Mood in German (Konjunktiv I): (courtesy of Dartmouth University German Dept) Dartmouth German Grammar The special subjunctive appears most frequently in restatements of what someone else has claimed (Indirect Discourse-Indirekte Rede). Let us assume, for example, that a politician asserts: "Ich bin ein ehrlicher Mensch. Ich habe kein Geld gestohlen." I am an honest person. I haven't stolen any money. A newspaper would report this statement as follows: Er sagte, er sei ein ehrlicher Mensch. Er habe kein Geld gestohlen. He said that he was an honest person. He hadn't stolen any money. By using the special subjunctive, the newspaper is asserting its own neutrality concerning the claim's veracity. English does not provide so elegant a means. "He said that he was an honest person" - as opposed to "He said that he is an honest person" - is a kind of modified subjunctive that provides some distance, but it cannot be sustained over longer passages as easily as German's special subjunctive. Instead, English must rely on words like "allegedly" and frequent repetitions of "he said...." Here is part of an interview that the Bildzeitung conducted with Katherina Reiche, a politician who was expecting a baby: BILD: Haben Sie keine Angst, dass der Wahlkampfstress Ihnen oder Ihrem ungeborenen Kind schadet? BILD: Aren't you afraid that the stress of a campaign will hurt you or your unborn child? Katherina Reiche: Nein! Ich habe eine robuste Konstitution, stehe unter ständiger ärztlicher Betreuung. Die Nottasche fürs Krankenhaus steht bereit. Katherina Reiche: No! I have a robust constitution, am constantly under a doctor's care. The emergency bag for the hospital is already packed. BILD: Was wird es denn? BILD: What is the baby going to be? Katherina Reiche: Es wird ein Mädchen. Wir haben auch schon einen Namen, aber der wird nicht verraten. Katherina Reiche: "It's a girl. We already have a name, but it won't be revealed." A report of this interview might read: Die Bildzeitung fragte, ob sie keine Angst habe, dass der Wahlkampfstress ihr oder ihrem ungeborenen Kind schade. Katherina Reiche antwortete, nein, sie habe eine robuste Konstitution, stehe unter ständiger ärztlicher Betreuung. Die Nottasche fürs Krankenhaus stehe bereit. Gefragt, was es denn werde, antwortete Frau Reiche, dass es ein Mädchen werde. Sie haben auch schon einen Namen, aber der werde nicht verraten. German can also use the general subjunctive in indirect discourse: "sie hätte keine Angst"; "Die Nottasche fürs Krankenhaus stände bereit." This form is more colloquial, however. Depending on the context, it can also imply disbelief. But even a formal, neutral report might employ the general subjunctive when the special subjunctive form is ambiguous, i.e. when there is no distinction between the special subjunctive and indicative forms. Instead of "sie haben schon einen Namen," which might or might not be subjunctive, one might write the unambiguous "sie hätten schon einen Namen." It is thus possible to use both the special and general subjunctives within the same sentence: "Sie hätten auch schon einen Namen, aber der werde nicht verraten." If the original quotation contained a general subjunctive form, it is retained: "Ich würde es tun, wenn ich könnte, aber ich bin jetzt zu krank." I would do it if I could, but now I am too sick. This becomes: Er würde es tun, wenn er könnte, aber er sei jetzt zu krank. Tenses in the Special Subjunctive: While the general subjunctive offers only two tenses, the special subjunctive has four: present: Er wolle uns helfen, aber er könne es heute nicht tun. [ he says that] He wants to help us, but he can't do it today. Sie sei kein Kind mehr. [she says that] She is no longer a child. Sie schlafe gern auf dem Balkon. [she says that] She likes to sleep on the balcony. past: Er habe nicht gewusst, dass er seinen Hut vergessen habe. [he says that] He didn't know that he had forgotten his hat. Sie habe einen Unfall gehabt, weil sie zu schnell gefahren sei. [she says that] She had an accident because she was driving too fast. future: Er werde in Zukunft mehr arbeiten. [he says that] He will work more in the future. Sie werde uns bald besuchen. [she says that] She will visit us soon. future perfect: Er werde es vor Freitag fertig gemacht haben. [he says that] He will have finished it before Friday. Sie werde bis dann alles gelesen haben. [she says that] She will have read everything by then. Note that the three indicative past tenses (imperfect, present perfect, and past perfect) are reduced in both subjunctives to one perfect tense: habe/hätte gesehen, sei/wäre gelaufen. Some Other Uses of Special Subjunctive: 1) As in English, the special subjunctive can be used for third-person commands: Es lebe der König! Long live the king! Gott gebe, dass wir sicher ankommen. May God grant that we arrive safely. Hole ihn der Teufel! The devil take him! Möge sie glücklich sein. May she be happy. Er komme! Let him come! Gott sei Dank. Thanks be to God. 2) Somewhat more common in third-person commands is "mögen" in the special subjunctive: Möge sie glücklich sein. May she be happy. Möge dir Gott helfen. May God help you. 3) Consistent with such commands, recipes in old-fashioned cookbooks are often written in the special subjunctive: Man erhitze die Artischockenherzen in etwas Olivenöl. Heat the artichoke hearts in some olive oil. 4) German has no word for "unless." It can - albeit rarely - use "außer dass" or "außer wenn", but most common is the special subjunctive phrase, "es sei denn,...": Wir fahren morgen früh, es sei denn, du willst länger schlafen. We're leaving tomorrow morning, unless you want to sleep late. Wir fahren mit deinem Wagen, es sei denn, dass du etwas dagegen hast. We'll go in your car, unless you have something against that. Sie kommt bald, es sei denn, dass sie den Bus verpasst hat. She's coming soon, unless she missed the bus. 5) As in English, the special subjunctive can be used to concede a point, although such constructions are largely obsolete: Sei der Berg auch noch so hoch, wir werden ihn ersteigen. However high the mountain may be, we'll climb it. Er möge schreien, soviel er will, wir kaufen es ihm nicht. He can yell as much as he wants, but we won't buy it for him. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4615 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 210 of 236 29 August 2014 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | ||
Thanks for the article. My houseguest and I discussed this quite a bit. Apparently Turkish-flavored German is regarded with the same disdain by many people as is Ebonics in the USA. She also talked about the opposite: German-flavored/accented Turkish and how many German-born heritage speakers of Turkish have an unsophisticated grasp on the language (especially if their grandparents/parents came from a rural area). Similar to many second- or third-generation heritage Spanish speakers in the US. Meanwhile one of my skype partners is vacationing in Turkey at a resort staffed entirely by German-speaking Turks... And yes, of course you are right. As long as I keep using the language, I'll continue to improve, if ever so gradually....Of course now I'm thinking of returning to the class, just because I like the people. They can stress out about the test and I can just go along for the ride. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6590 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 211 of 236 29 August 2014 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for the examples and explanations! I'm doing the subjunctive too :)
I'm quite impressed by the ones for Russian too, they seem to be some of the best I've seen on HTLAL. Just one typo:
Also some fun subtleties - "я читала эту книгу" can often imply a distance in time, while прочитать generally implies having read it recently and still remembering the content well. So for example when school kids discuss the books they were supposed to read during the holidays, "читала" may imply reading it on your own before it was assigned, or skipping some boring parts, whereas прочитала has a stronger emphasis on a complete, thorough and probably recent act of reading. If you use a modifier (like "я прочитала эту книгу в прошлом году"), you basically give it importance and imply that you still remember it well, and probably liked it, or maybe even hated. The action was significant enough that it wasn't undone by reading other books or having other memorable experiences. That's probably too advanced for your current level, but it might be useful since you read a lot :) And I think the idea that an action can be "undone" is important for understanding the aspects. So if a building was построено 1-3 years ago, you imply that no natural disaster has destroyed it, and if it was 5-10 years ago, you imply that it's been maintained (at least somewhat) and isn't falling apart yet. If the action did get "undone" to some extent, you either state this explicitly or use the imperfective. Edited by Serpent on 29 August 2014 at 7:02pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4615 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 212 of 236 29 August 2014 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks, Serpent! My typing ability in Cyrillic is quite awful. I'm relieved there was only one typo...and I love the subtleties, even if I'm not quite there yet. :)
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4615 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 213 of 236 01 September 2014 at 2:03am | IP Logged | ||
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August SC Challenge Content Summary-SPANISH (Russian summary on polydog.org site)
Read 1. Not that good: ebook La interpredora de sueños, - historical novel with some famous characters thrown in (Kafka, Freud, Hemingway, among many others) 2. Very good, especially for language learners : Penguin Stories in Spanish with parallel text: short stories with notes on vocabulary and grammar usage, including regionalisms. The stories become progressively more difficult, with the left page is in Spanish and the right facing page in English, so easy to look up unfamiliar words or see how an idiom is expressed. 3. Surreal: El hombre sentado by Ariel Magnus. I recently listened to an audiobook from him in German called Ein Chinese auf dem Fahrrad (Un chino en bicicleta), which I liked, so I read this ebook. It was a series of somewhat related vignettes, set in Stockholm. What's it about? The end of the world, an apocalyptic cult, a furniture salesman, a crucifix salesman, the emptiness of modern society, strange relationships, zombies, the poetry of Cesar Vallejo, etc. It was based on the Swedish director Roy Andersson's film "Songs from the Second Floor". I got the video out of the library and the book was almost a verbatim screenplay version of the film. I tend to like strange stuff like this, but it is definitely not to everyone's taste. The director is described as "slapstick Ingmar Bergman" if that gives you an idea. Here's a very brief article in English by Ariel Magnus with the topic of German-Jewish assimilation into Argentinean society. Ariel Magnus Watched/listened: TV series: 1. End of "Flaman" season 1 (silly but fun sci-fi with lots of teenage slang) 2. "El tiempo entre costuras" (costume drama miniseries about a seamstress who spies for the British in WWII, much better than the average telenovela) I think a lot of Team Lobo members are watching this one. 3. Terrible sitcom called "Familia en venta" that I turned off half way through. 4. A couple of episodes of "Suleimán, El Gran Sultán". This telenovela was originally in Turkish (my houseguest recommended it to me). Costume drama set in the 16th century, dubbed into Spanish, currently on MundoFox in US. I plan to watch this now in Spanish and again someday in Turkish (available with Eng subtitles on youtube under "Magnificent Century/ Muhteşem Yüzyıl "). The acting and plot is typical telenovela style, so we'll see how long I last with this one, though the costumes and music are really awesome and it would be cool to learn about the Ottoman Empire (even if I doubt the representation of history would be all that trustworthy. 
5. A couple of episodes of "Pulseras Rojas". This series was originally in Catalan and dubbed into Spanish. The songs are sung in Catalan with Spanish subtitles. It's about a group of teens who become friends while facing various illnesses in a pediatric ward of a hospital. A remake of this is about to debut here in an English-language version on Fox as "The Red Band Society", described as " a provocative, unconventional and unique coming-of- age dramedy about a group of rule-bending friends and the adults who mentor them through the ups and downs of adolescence in Los Angeles' Ocean Park Hospital. Exploring everything from strong friendships, and first loves, to humorous mishaps and heartbreaks, the series is a story of life, with an edgy comedic tone all its own. FILMS: 1. OK: "Tren de noche a Lisboa" (originally in English) : a Swiss teacher (played by Jeremy Irons) investigates the story of a man and his friends under Salazar's regime in Portugal. The movie dragged a bit at times, but then so did the book, which I read a number of years ago in English translation. Lots of familiar German-language actors in this one (Martina Gedeck, Bruno Ganz, Burghart Klaussner, all playing Portuguese people). 2. OK, but uneven: "A cada lado" a low-budget Argentinean film about the building of a bridge and the story of various people nearby. Lots of Argentinean slang and curse words. So much so that at times it was challenging to understand, so I re-watched a couple of scenes with the English subtitles turned on, but it wasn't necessary to follow the story. Oddball characters. Other: listened to a podcast from ¿Qué libro leo? in which the announcer read an extended excerpt from, "Si te gustó la escuela, te encantará el trabajo" , written originally in English and set where I live. Edited by BAnna on 01 September 2014 at 2:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4615 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 214 of 236 01 September 2014 at 2:10am | IP Logged | ||
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August SC Challenge Content Summary-GERMAN (Russian summary on polydog.org site)
Audiobooks: 1. Ein Chinese auf dem Fahrrad -, about an Argentinean computer geek who is kidnapped into the Chinese community in Buenos Aires. The title refers to the cliché that Chinese people always ride bikes. Pretty good. See link above under book 3 for a link to an article in English by the author on German-Jewish assimilation into Argetinean society. 2. Die Mittagsfrau, beautifully written book following a woman's life from WWI to just after WWII. Very dark and tragic, but worth reading or listening to. It opens with her abandoning her child, then tells the story of what brought her to that point. 
3. Zorgamazoo (originally in English) Fantasy tale for kids told in Dr Seuss-like verse. I had tried listening to this a year or so ago and couldn't stick with it. This time around, it seemed quite easy and enjoyable, though the versifying can grate at times if you aren't in the mood. TV: 1. Documentaries: Gesichter Asiens-Unbekanntes Afghanistan -beautiful cinematography, recommended by one of my skype partners, Heimat Journal episode on Fashion in Berlin's Wedding district 2. Series: Bauer sucht Kultur-South Brandenburg. Max Moor travels around various off-the-beaten-track regions of Germany meeting people who are doing interesting stuff. It's fun as a learner to hear him asking the locals for directions. 3. Made for TV movie: Liebe am Fjord -Zwei Sommer (love triangle about people near retirement age. I didn't expect much so wasn't disappointed...haha) Read: 1. Pretty good-"Tauben fliegen auf": Very well-written, but no real plot. It won both the German and Swiss book prizes a few years ago. Describes the life of an immigrant family from the Hungarian part of then Yugoslavia (Serbia) who move to Switzerland. This review about sums it up: Love German Books Review of Tauben fliegen auf 2. Pretty good: "Angerichtet" (originally in Dutch, English title is The Dinner) takes place over the course of a dinner at a fancy restaurant and it gradually becomes apparent that narrator is completely unreliable and rather scary. I don't want to give too much away. A quick read with funny and creepy bits mixed together. Don't try this one if you only enjoy novels where you like the characters ;) 3. Amusing "Eine deutsche Leidenschaft namens Nudelsalat". This is a collection of short stories, musings etc. by the German-Syrian author Rafik Schami. I felt like a break from the more challenging reading I've been doing. This last was an ebook I got through the Goethe Institute in New York's e-Library lending service. For $10 a year, one can check out electronic books, magazines, and audio materials. What a deal! They also have a brick and mortar library for anyone living near NYC. Edited by BAnna on 01 September 2014 at 2:16am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4526 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 215 of 236 01 September 2014 at 11:00am | IP Logged | ||
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This last was an ebook I got through the Goethe Institute in New York's e-Library lending service. For $10 a year,
one can check out electronic books, magazines, and audio materials. What a deal! They also have a brick and mortar library for anyone living near NYC. This is a great tip for US German learners. Can you get the ebooks from outside of NYC? The Berlin libraries also have an ebook lending service, though I have never tried using it. I have been thinking of reading Tauben fliegen auf for a while - I started it last year but found it too difficult then - but I am not sure I am really in the mood for a semi-plotless book at the moment. It's cool to see you reading 'love German books' - Katy Darbyshire has a really interesting blog. I hope we'll bump into each other one day in Berlin. Edited by patrickwilken on 01 September 2014 at 11:05am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4615 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 216 of 236 01 September 2014 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, the ebooks, music, audiobooks and epapers (over 20 magazines/newspapers) are all available anywhere in the US, perhaps elsewhere-Canada? I haven't been a huge fan of reading ebooks, but I'm gradually getting used to it, especially since the Goethe e-lending library such a bargain and I never seem to have enough shelf space for real books.
I don't know if I'd recommend Tauben fliegen auf. Parts were interesting and it was definitely well-written, but overall it was just ok. I think the mixed review by Katy Darbyshire was really spot-on. I do enjoy that site, thanks again for recommending it. I only wish I had the time to read all the books she recommends! 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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