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Gary’s TAC 2013 - PAX | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5200 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 105 of 160 15 August 2013 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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And now some more positive news about French! I made it to the meetup this week after all, and it was great. Similar to the last one: several French people and quite a few very competent learners. And with that particular meetup, people generally accept the idea that it's for speaking French, and aside from a couple of repeat offenders, they tend to keep it in French. I just wish it happened more frequently.
A French guy said my accent sounded Swiss. I've previously been told Canadian and Belgian, but Swiss is a new one. I suppose that means it's at least changing and getting closer to the target; at the end of the day it just means that I'm sounding more like a French speaker who's not from France itself, which is definitely a good thing! Language interference Since I've been speaking so much Italian and relatively little French recently, it's starting to interfere with my French in some interesting ways. Often if I can't recall a piece of vocabulary immediately, it will come to me in Italian before French, even when I'm speaking French. Unless of course it's part of the pretty significant vocabulary that I know in French but not Italian, in which case the opposite happens - when I'm speaking Italian, and I don't know a word, it often comes in French before English. And last night, at one point I instinctively said "c'è" instead of "il y a" in the middle of a French sentence, and at another time I accidentally switched to Italian after having mentioned the name of an Italian city, and only realised a couple of seconds later; in the second case I was speaking to another French and Italian learner so I'm sure she understood! Overall it's hardly a serious problem, given that it only happened a couple of times in several hours, and I've seen similar things happen with other people, particularly ones who speak Spanish as well as French. If anything it's quite amusing. And apart from that, I felt I was mostly speaking very well. Even if my level isn't as high as I'd like by now, it seems to be "solidifying" a bit and becoming a bit more consistent with fewer ups and downs. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| geoffw Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4681 days ago 1134 posts - 1865 votes Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian | Message 106 of 160 15 August 2013 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I think this is often a result of heavy exposure to one but not the other, and it can be mitigated if you pay
attention. This used to happen a lot for me with German and Yiddish (which are significantly closer than Italian and French, even), but once I recognized that it was happening it became easier to not blurt out the wrong thing. I've also had a lot of similar issues with interference with my native English, though. The first thing that comes to mind to express a concept may be a German word or a Dutch phrase, and then I'll tank trying to translate that concept into English, when there's no absolutely equivalent expression. Alternatively, I may translate it literally and sound very odd. For example, recently I said that I had not "been of plan" to do something (cf. "Ik was niet van plan om dat to doen") when I probably should have said that I had not "planned/been planning" to do it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5200 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 107 of 160 15 August 2013 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
Interesting! Even though I've been focusing a bit more on Italian recently, I have still been getting a reasonable amount of French exposure through films and radio. But I already wrote recently that real-life exposure seems to count for much more than other exposure, and that would further prove the idea. And yeah, like other mistakes, being aware of it happening is the first step towards fixing it.
That also happens to me, although I'd say less so recently than it used to. It's especially noticeable if I've just been speaking another language for a while. In both cases, I think the problem can be mitigated to an extent, and lessen over time as the languages become more settled in your mind, but it's hard to avoid completely. I suppose they're just disadvantages of knowing several languages, and are hardly a big deal when you consider all of the advantages! A bit of inelegance in my English isn't a bad trade-off for knowing a couple of other languages, and the odd Italian word slipping into my French is worth it for being able to, well, speak Italian. Edited by garyb on 15 August 2013 at 3:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5200 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 108 of 160 18 August 2013 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Last night I was at a very international dinner/gathering. I anticipated lots of Italian, and there was some of that, but to my surprise, more French. A couple of interesting points:
More strange experiences with the French I spoke some French with a Frenchwoman there, and soon after that another one came in, and the first introduced me saying something along the lines of "c'est Gary, il est écossais mais il parle un petit peu de français", including the "petit peu" hand gesture with the thumb and index finger close together, which I have to admit was a blow to my ego. I'm not exactly fishing for compliments, but at the same time I think that by now I speak more than just a "little bit". And it's not even like I was having a bad day; I felt that I was expressing myself pretty fluently and correctly. At any rate, my French was significantly better than her English (between B1 and B2 by her own account and I'd agree), yet I'd never have dared insult her ability and hard work by telling people she speaks "a little bit of English". Despite all this though, she very happily spoke to me in French and didn't ever answer me in English, and at times when we were conversing in English with non-French speakers, she didn't hesitate to ask me in French how to say a certain thing in English. After this, one of her friends arrived, and she said something like "I've been helping him with his French recently, but he really doesn't need it, his French is almost perfect and he can say anything he wants". We spoke with him, and while his French certainly wasn't bad at all, I honestly think that mine is significantly better. I'm not trying to show off and I'm absolutely not criticising his efforts (it's not a competition, it took me a hell of a lot of time and hard work to get to his level never mind beyond; like before, I'm only making the comparison to support my point!), but I'm just really curious why the same person will exaggeratedly praise one person's French yet be condescending about someone else's higher level. Probably just because it's a friend. I'm coming to the conclusion that assessments of language ability outside of exams are completely subjective and arbitrary. I do think that I'm getting too much of an ego about my French, but in a large part it's just due to what I wrote a few posts ago about feeling the need to prove myself due to their reactions. It's still a bit of a vicious circle, and the pressure doesn't just affect my ability, it also no doubt makes me come across as trying too hard and not at ease. I'm probably just being far too sensitive and making a big deal over a fairly insignificant statement. Less language interference I was switching between English, French and Italian quite easily, even every two or three sentences at one point, and I didn't notice any significant interference. I did make a few French mistakes: at one point I said "la chose plus difficile" instead of "la chose la plus difficile", which is an embarrassingly basic mistake and no doubt one influenced by Italian which doesn't double the article (la cosa più difficile), but I think that was as much due to feeling under pressure as it was to interference. Overall though, I was doing really well and I hadn't even realised I was capable of switching between languages like that. I suppose it's a skill like any other, and that includes the fact that I'm much better at it some days than others. Edited by garyb on 18 August 2013 at 1:38pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kerrie Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Kerrie2 Joined 5388 days ago 1232 posts - 1740 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 109 of 160 18 August 2013 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
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This is (in part) why I've been thinking of focusing on Italian before I focus on French. Even when you are good, it seems like it's not good enough. For French. It seems to be a recurring theme, but I can't remember hearing of people having the same problem with any other language.
All I can say is - don't let people and comments like that get you down! A lot of times, people don't realize the impact of what they're saying. A lot of times, what seems like an unpleasant comment to you was not meant that way. From her (culturally different) perspective, her intention likely was different than how you took it. If that makes sense. It is really cool that you're getting to the point with both languages that you can go back and forth with very little interference. That's really awesome. :D 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5002 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 110 of 160 18 August 2013 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It's quite a funny experience. And strange.
I'd really love to know why this is so difficult when it comes to French. Perhaps some good French wine could help with the bad feelings from this? Or something sweet. Both to relieve the pain from hurt ego and to remind ourselves of the good things related to France :-D 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5200 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 111 of 160 19 August 2013 at 10:58am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, probably; I doubt that she meant to be unpleasant, and what she intended was likely more along the lines of "he speaks some French". I suppose that the fact that that was her first impression was just a bit of a blow. I still wonder if people tend to underestimate my level at first because of my accent, which like I've said is improving but still needs a lot of work. Also, I've been very tired and stressed out as the last couple of weeks have been crazy, and in that state I'm always a bit more sensitive than usual and I can get upset by things that normally wouldn't bother me much. And I've also had the opposite experience a few times: people saying that my French is very good, yet refusing to speak it with me and always switching to English. That's worse, as it makes the compliment seem completely insincere and patronising...
In fact, the woman in question brought some home-made crêpes to the dinner party, complete with jar of Nutella. That did ease the pain slightly! I also told my French Skype partner about the whole thing when we were chatting yesterday. His response was "oh, and I bet your French was better than her English!", and we had a good laugh about it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5200 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 112 of 160 21 August 2013 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Non-ideal conditions
I was very tired and the bar was crowded and noisy - so a normal Monday language café night. First time I had been in a few weeks, and I was fully expecting to speak some French so I was in "French mode". But in the end there was nobody to speak it with, whereas two Italians turned up. Unlike the experience at the weekend, it took me a good few minutes to start thinking in Italian. I guess I was right about switching just being another skill, and it's one that's also affected a lot by environment. One of the Italians was sitting across from me, which in that situation is too far away to even understand English well, and he was very talkative and spoke extremely quickly. I had to ask him to repeat himself many times. Thankfully, he was Italian and not French, so he was happy to repeat in Italian as he realised that I was just having difficulty hearing as opposed to being crap at his language. Being me, I of course tried to keep up with the Italians' speed, which actually went better than expected apart from the times when I had to stop and think. But sometimes I just need to tell myself to slow down and focus on accuracy, especially if I feel under pressure. Re-watching films Last night I had a couple of hours of relatively repetitive manual work to do, so I put on Notte prima degli esami, a light-hearted film that I've already seen a few times, in the background. Re-watching films, even without paying full attention, definitely seems useful. I remember emk writing about ripping the audio from previously-watched films and using it for background listening, and it seems like a good idea, probably more productive than just listening to radio. You have the benefits of repetition of memorable material, plus you tend to notice new things each time you watch/hear it. I think it could be a good idea to pick a few choice films to re-watch every few months or so. Edited by garyb on 21 August 2013 at 1:21pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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