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Gary’s 2015 TACtivation: FR, IT | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 65 of 187 10 March 2015 at 11:50am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Quick thoughts on Italian and mistakes:
In the last few days I got a sudden flood of very similar compliments from Italians. I'm not using it as an ego boost, since as you'll see they're not accurate and of course many Italians heavily compliment anyone who can say a sentence in their language. But in the last week, five different people in different situations have said the same thing to me about my Italian being "almost flawless" and "better than their English". The first point is nonsense - I make plenty mistakes and I'm very aware of them. But it reminded me of music: when you play a concert, you can make a ton of mistakes, but as long as you keep going and don't stop, the audience never notices. I've watched friends play who afterwards complained about being unhappy with their performance and all their mistakes, yet even with my musician's ears I hadn't noticed a single flaw. And in my band we've all made some quite offensive mistakes, from wrong notes to completely losing our place and playing out of time with each other, yet people tell us we played great and it sounded just fine. So the lesson to take from that is that if you make a mistake you should just keep going and move on, and don't let it stop your flow. For the second point, if I ask what they mean by "better" they always mean "more correct". Yet I consider their English better than my Italian because they're much more fluent than I am, even if less correct. This makes sense considering our respective situations: they live in the UK so they speak every day, while I speak less frequently but study more. And I've met people who were considered "good speakers" for their accent, despite not being very fluent nor correct. So that made me think that there isn't just one way to define language ability. Obvious point perhaps, but nice to keep in mind. Like I say I'm not fussed about having my ego boosted: my goal is to communicate with people, not to be told that I'm good. But at the same time if they think I'm good then it's easier to communicate with them :). 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 66 of 187 11 March 2015 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Since I'm always complaining that I don't have enough free time, this article I found in Italian was very, ahem, timely: "Non ho tempo" – Smetti di raccontarti palle ("I don't have time – stop lying to yourself"). That's inspired a piece of writing on the subject.
L'idea principale è quella di smettere di usare la scusa di non avere abbastanza tempo, e invece rendersi conto che si tratti di una questione di priorità. Se non hai tempo per fare una cosa, vuol dire che quella cosa non è fra le tue priorità. Così si intende anche l'opposto: le cose che fai sono per forza le tue priorità. Dunque, se passi due ore al giorno su Facebook e poi ti lamenti di non avere il tempo per scrivere un romanzo, è che per te Facebook rappresenta una maggiore priorità del romanzo. E che c'entra con me? Ci sono tante cose che vorrei fare "se solo avessi 40 ore al giorno" come dice l'articolo. Quella più ovvia sarebbe di dedicare più tempo all'apprendimento delle lingue: guardare più TV e film, leggere più libri e articoli, conversare di più, prendere lezioni, esercitare di più la mia pronuncia, insomma sfruttare tutte le tecniche delle quali discutiamo qui. E poi le lingue non sono mica il mio unico interesse: inoltre, ci sono la musica, lo sport e la vita sociale. Per non parlare di tutte le cose che non faccio affatto per mancanza di tempo... io amerei imparare a ballare, tipo salsa, praticare un'arte marziale, chi più ne ha più ne metta. Allora, che cosa mi impedisce di fare tutte queste cose, se no il tempo limitato? Anche se domani mi iscrivessi alle lezioni di salsa e a una scuola di Muay Thai, so bene che trovare il tempo necessario per andarci ogni settimana e fare progressi sarebbe a costo degli altri interessi. Quindi, sì che ho deciso che non sono tra le mie priorità, almeno in questo periodo, mentre le lingue e la musica lo sono, almeno fino a un certo punto. Però, parliamo delle cose più problematiche, i veri sprechi di tempo. Dispongo di qualche ora libera ogni sera e di più ogni week-end, e a volte anche durante i periodi calmi al lavoro, e non è che io le passi sempre nel modo più produttivo. Sì, anche lo svago ha la sua importanza e l'articolo ne parla, ma ammetto che ci sono momenti in cui perdo proprio tempo, cioè non faccio qualcosa di produttivo né qualcosa di veramente rilassante e divertente. Come l'esempio già citato di Facebook. La mia scusa preferita è la stanchezza: quando sono stanco, non sono capace di studiare o lavorare bene. In quei momenti, farei meglio a fare o qualcosa di meno impegnativo eppure sempre utile (leggere o guardare qualcosa di leggero in francese o in Italiano piuttosto che studiare o parlare, suonare qualche pezzo invece di esercitare scale e tecniche, sistemare delle cose in casa), o qualcosa che mi faccia svagarmi e divertirmi. E per quanto riguarda la stanchezza e le sue cause sottostante, ci sto lavorando su e di recente faccio anche progressi! The main idea is to stop using the excuse of not having enough time, and instead realise that it's a matter of priorities. If you don't have time to do something, that means that that thing isn't amongst your priorities. The converse is also understood: the things that you do must be your priorities. So, if you spend two hours a day on Facebook and then complain about not having enough time to write a book, Facebook must be a greater priority than the book. And how does that relate to me? There are lots of things that I'd like to do "if only I had 40 hours per day" as the article says. The most obvious one would be to dedicate more time to language learning: watch more TV and films, read more books and articles, converse more, take lessons, practise my pronunciation more, basically take advantage of all the techniques that we discuss on here. And languages are hardly my only interest: beyond that there is music, sport, and social life. Not to mention all the things that I don't do at all because of lack of time... I'd love to learn to dance, something like salsa or who knows, do a martial art, and so on and so forth. So, what's stopping me from doing all these things, if not limited time? Even if tomorrow I signed up for salsa lessons and a Muay Thai school, I know well that finding the necessary time to go every week and make progress would be detrimental to my other interests. Therefore, yes, I've decided that they're not in my priorities, at least for this time, while languages and music are, at least to some extent. However, let's talk about the more problematic things, the real wastes of time. I have a few free hours every evening and more every weekend, and a times even during calm periods at work, and it's not like I always spend them in the most productive way. Yes, leisure also has its importance and the article talks about that, but I acknowledge that there are moments when I really waste time, that is, I do neither something productive nor something truly relaxing and entertaining. Like the already-mentioned example of Facebook. My favourite excuse is tiredness: if I'm tired, I'm not able to study or work well. At these times, I'd be better off either doing something less demanding yet still useful (reading or watching something light in French or Italian rather than studying or speaking, playing some pieces rather than practising scales and techniques, sorting things out in the house) or something that lets me relax and enjoy myself. And as far as the tiredness and its underlying causes go, I'm working on it and recently I'm even making progress! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4091 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 67 of 187 11 March 2015 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Astute observation! Personally, I pay more attention to which word is used to compliment me than the actual fact that I am being complimented. I am used to having my praises sung by French people and they usually say how "good" my French is. Although I smile and say thank you every time, I never take it to mean anything beyond "wow, you're a foreigner with an accent and I didn't have to slow down, switch register or try to remember any of my school English". It's when I am told that my French is something other than "good" or that I speak something other than "well" that I start taking compliments to heart. Like a few weeks back someone told me something I had worked for a long while on was written in "beautiful French", or some months ago when almost 100 French people shared something I wrote on my French blog on Facebook (even though they shared it for the content, the fact that my French didn't factor in as a deterrent was a huge compliment for me). Have you noticed anything similar in how compliments are phrased? Edited by eyðimörk on 11 March 2015 at 6:10pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Sarnek Diglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4207 days ago 308 posts - 414 votes Speaks: Italian*, English Studies: German, Swedish | Message 68 of 187 11 March 2015 at 8:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Non so se qualcuno abbia già corretto il tuo testo sul tempo, ma se così non fosse ho potuto trovare solo due piccoli errori.
Quindi complimentoni :D
As for this point, you should also consider that English has a very similiar grammar to Italian, but in a "simplified" way: English' syntax is almost the same, both languages share a lot of vocabulary, adjectives are not declined, only one article in English, verbs are barely conjugated and there are way less tenses, etc... So that's a lot of stuff that certainly helps to get to a certain degree of fluency in a shorter period of time. My point is, don't think that Italians are more fluent in English than you are in Italian, as the latter have a huge starting advantage... Edited by Sarnek on 11 March 2015 at 8:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 69 of 187 12 March 2015 at 11:29am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, great point. I hear "you speak very well" quite often, and I consider it fairly meaningless. I've heard exactly the same thing being said to people with a much lower level than mine, even absolute beginners when they manage one almost-correct sentence. I take it as encouragement for making an effort as opposed to any statement about my ability. Indeed, I take more specific compliments more seriously. The ones about lack of mistakes, even if not completely accurate, mean that I'm using the language well enough that I'm easily understood and any mistakes I do make aren't causing problems. And if someone says they're impressed by my use of a particular word or expression or grammar structure, that's a good sign that I've mastered something beyond the basics. Another one I hear a lot from Italians is "wow, you understand everything, even slang!". Understanding is much easier than speaking, and most slang they're referring to is everyday stuff that you pick up quickly with exposure, so I don't exactly consider it exceptional. But again, I take it for what it is: a sign that they feel comfortable speaking to me and don't need to lower their level for my benefit. Italians aren't very used to foreigners learning their language to any significant level, so their reactions tend to be either compliments or confusion. In my experience, the French are much less easily impressed. This can be bad at earlier stages, as they give less encouragement and are more likely to just switch to English, but once you're more advanced it can be a good thing as they just get on with the interaction rather than making a big deal of your ability. You're living in France so you surely have a lot more experience than I do, and I'm (pleasantly) surprised to hear you get your praises sung so much. Is this mostly from people in social settings, or at work, or in customer service situations?
Grazie! Ma quali sarebbero questi errori? ;)
That's a great point that I hadn't considered! You're probably right: speaking Romance languages takes a lot of mental energy with things like gender/number agreement and verb forms. Even to say a fairly simple sentence you have to think about which article, which verb form for the tense and person, which ending for the adjective; the rules for all of these are complex and have plenty exceptions. Even once you learn all this, making it automatic in speaking takes a lot of time and practice, more so than for a less morphologically complex language like English. So comparing my Italian fluency to their English fluency is perhaps unfair and too harsh on myself. Them saying my Italian is "better" because it's more correct, and me saying their English is "better" because it's more fluent, are both inaccurate comparisons. I'm sure that Benny Lewis wrote something similar, saying that even though his level in his Romance languages was much higher, he found that Asian languages can feel easier to speak because there's simply less to think about. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4091 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 70 of 187 12 March 2015 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I am not sure how to generalise in a useful way. If I say that it's largely in a "social setting" (I freelance, so I don't have a French work environment), that might give the impression that people are telling me I speak French well over a glass of wine, and if I say "customer service" you might think of a salesman with something to gain or a kind waitress at a touristy spot, when the reality is rather: I go for a walk along the country roads and say hello to an older gentleman. He stops and asks me if I'm the Swede who lives at [farmstead], I say yes, I am. He praises my French. I wait for my husband outside the garden centre. A stranger on a bicycle comments the weather, asks me if I'm English, compliments my French. I'm meeting with a notary public for the third time. She's stumbling over her English (the seller of my house didn't speak French), so I step in with a few words of French to clarify, we chat briefly about how difficult it is speaking a foreign language first thing in the morning. She compliments my French, and then, when introducing me to a colleague, tells him what excellent French I speak. I have a consultation with a plumber. We talk about pumps and the slope of the garden. He compliments my French. I'm buying a window and discussing its installation with a sales representative. He draws me a picture and compliments my French. I photograph a local bicycle race. The functionary standing next to me starts talking to me about his back problems. He compliments my French. I visit a local brewery to try some beer and chat with the owner the best spots to view the river. He asks where I'm from. He compliments my French and Scandinavians in general for being so amazing with languages (if only he knew the truth). The door-to-door potato salesman knocks on the door. He wants to know if I'm English. He compliments my French. Etc. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 71 of 187 12 March 2015 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Ok, thanks, that's interesting! The examples I described were too simplistic and based on my own limited experiences of visiting the country as opposed to living there.
By "customer service" I meant waiters, shop assistants, train station staff, hotel receptionists, that sort of thing - again you see my bias towards tourist situations. I've found these to be the situations in which people are most willing to speak French with me and also least likely to give compliments. Similar for asking people for directions in the street: not customer service, but still a "polite" interaction rather than a "social" one. In "social settings" (I was thinking of meeting people in bars, concerts, etc.) I find that people are much more likely to compliment but also much more likely to insist on English. Also, I've mostly visited more touristy places, and if I remember correctly, you live somewhere more rural where English is less widespread? I doubt that I'd come across many door-to-door potato salesmen in my trips to Paris and Nice :). Edited by garyb on 12 March 2015 at 1:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5001 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 72 of 187 12 March 2015 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I believe no compliment is the best compliment.
When they just carry on and treat you like one of theirs, it's the best compliment. When they say something like "oh, I though you were from Suisse" or another francophone place, it is great. Before that, it used to be great when my accent at the time didn't reveal even approximately my origin, it was just a general not too disturbing accent and people sorted me into possible nationalities more based on my looks than the accent. Sure, Czech accent might not be well known but it falls into a cathegory of a few accents and when people don't guess me to fall into the right group of native languages, it is first sign of success for me. Funny is to be complimented on my languages by other czechs who have heard me. I never know what to say (yeah, "thank you" suffices but still) and what to think. Of course there are various ways the natives compliment people. Should you ever get the crazy idea to learn Czech, most natives will be close to setting up a party with fireworks to celebrate your ability to order a beer in our language. :-D It really surprises me the Italians appear to have the same approach, their language is a popular one. 60 or more millions of natives, lots of heritage learners, culture adored in the whole world (at least the food and opera, but lots of other parts as well). I can't believe they are so unused to successful learners. The French have a bit of a bad luck, which is kind of excuse for the weird ways many treat foreigners speaking French. There are so many French learners and vast majority sucks. It is often not their fault. I can just see it around here. The French has the reputation of a difficult language with little practical (=employment) use and there is lower competition among the teachers which leads to much lower standards than when it comes to English/German. You can never compare the ESL learners with learners of other languages. It is not the same because English is everywhere. YOu are forced to learn it at school, whether you want or not. It's anywhere you turn to, even if you don't look for it or even try to avoid it. As soon as you open up a bit (which not everyones does), you can't not learn it. When it comes to any other language, you need to put in some efforts to get it. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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