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Polish TAC Team Żubr: Polski Dots | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 meramarina Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5960 days ago 1341 posts - 2303 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Italian, French Personal Language Map | Message 9 of 34 19 January 2012 at 4:34am | IP Logged | ||
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First dot
Kropka! That's the word for dot, and it sounds exactly like a dot, somehow. I've started to work with Polish, slowly, very slowly, because I'm in largely unfamiliar territory now. Romance and Germanic languages have enough words in common with English to allow the native English speaker to at least recognize a few words right away. Not so with Polish. So far, I've been working with the two short audio courses I have right now, learning phonology, pronunciation, key words and phrases, and of course those crazy, crazy consonant clusters. I like those these the best so far, because so many of them, drz, szcz, prz, and gdz just cannot exist in English, but that's the transformatve power of learning a new language: it makes the impossible possible! The Transparent Language recording isn't really a language program; It's more of a recorded phrasebook, but I'm practicing, listening, reading along and repeating to get at the sense and feel of the language and to discern its sounds and match them to the letters on the page. I also have the Pimsleur Short Course, and I'm almost certain that the English-speaking narrator for both recordings is the same person. It's Mr. Generic Language Course Guy! Next, I will take Cristina's good advice about asking the library to get copies of language programs or other materials. I'm thinking of asking for the Pimsleur Long Course, but then again, there's all that beer and wine and going to hotels to deal with . . . . ; I haven't yet delved into grammar. I have a few PDF grammer downloads to sort through. I'm doing a lot of handwritten word practice, too. I'm a little uncertain about the vowels ą and ę. They seem to be slightly nasalized and I sometimes hear an n also, and sometimes not. I just love all the z and w and y letters! If there's ever a shortage of the letters z and w in Poland, not much speaking would get done. And nobody would be able to say why. Why = y, get it? ha ha ha groooaaannn . . . sorry 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Vos Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5559 days ago 766 posts - 1020 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Dutch, Polish | Message 10 of 34 19 January 2012 at 6:33am | IP Logged | ||
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Taken from Colloquial Polish:
ą - before b and p 'om' trąbka (trompka) - trumpet gąbka (gompka) - sponge In most other cases - 'on' kąt (kont) - corner mądry (mondry) - clever As the final letter of the word ą retains it's nasal value: są (pronounced like 'song' without the 'g' - son) - they are ę - before b and p 'em' zęby (zemby) - teeth postęp (postemp) - progress In most other cases 'en': ręka (renka) - hand kolęda (kolenda) - carol as the final letter of the word (usually pronounced): imię (imie) - christian name Hope that helps with those nasal vowels. Kropka, it's a very rustic crunchy dot though isn't it? Slightly wild but with a great heart. Wonderful word. Very glad to see that you've been chipping away and have started your ascent up Mt Polski. Will be sending you some things shortly. Powodzenia! 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 6098 days ago 707 posts - 1220 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 11 of 34 19 January 2012 at 10:14am | IP Logged | ||
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It's a well known biological fact that Bisons have evolved the formidable capacity of processing consonants. Great mouthfuls all jumbled together are no problem for them (but young ones occasionally suffer a little indigestion).
I still wonder how so many consonants can be crunched into distinctive sounds. Call it 'muscle memory' or something, but my jaw and mouth have somehow become trained to utter such sounds relatively smoothly. The vowels ą and ę are a little tricky. Oscar Swan gives the handy tip: 'The sound ą is pronounced like om except that the lips are not completely closed to pronounce the m, leaving a nasal resonance instead.' Likewise with ę pronounced like em except the lips or tongue are not completely closed. You can download a pdf of Oscar Swan's Polish Grammar in a Nutshell. I have noticed that the ę sounds less nasal at the end of a word though, sometimes it almost sounds like a straight 'e'. Pa! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| meramarina Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5960 days ago 1341 posts - 2303 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Italian, French Personal Language Map | Message 12 of 34 01 March 2012 at 5:06am | IP Logged | ||
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I actually wrote this a month ago and didn't post it, because I wanted to have more progress to report. I updated it tonight after my bison friends became concerned that I was no longer among the living. I've just been a tired bison with poor concentration lately—sorry!—bardzo mi przykro!
Polish words are difficult. I write each word or phrase several times, over and over, until I know it. Then, I forget it. Well, it's not quite so bad; I can say that I know some words now, which is nice, but I can't say the words. That's bad. Actually, I can say only one word at a time, if I concentrate really, really hard, and this would be a significant problem in a conversational situation, but that's not possible now, so I won't worry. Listening is befuddling but I really do like the sound of the language. It's very pleasant to hear it even if I don't understand. I notice that when I follow along with text and audio together, some of the sounds seem to be reduced, or elides--I'm not sure if that's the proper term for this, maybe it has something to do with the quick sibilant sounds--and my sight can't quite catch up to my hearing. And I have a very different feeling when I listen without looking at the page, a sense of enjoying the language but not understanding anything! I think I can just hear the general rhythm of the spoken language much better when my eyes aren't getting caught on all the jagged-looking consonants. Seeing the words from the perspective of a native English speaker, I guess I expect to hear more syllables than are actually spoken, or spoken distinctly. Sometimes, though, I understand a word or two though when I'm not expecting it, and then, I'm so happy that I don't study for days. Anyway, progress in continues to be slow for other unrelated, annoying reasons. There's a problem with the power supply to the house, and I have only unpredictable, intermittent access to light. Several attempts to identify and fix the malfunction have not worked. The most obvious and reasonable interpretation of the situation, I think, is that some sort of otherworldy being, and certainly not a nice one, is messing around with wires behind the wall. So, I call this unfriendly supernatural visitation Sparky, the freaky electric antilinguistic nemesis-spirit but I don't know what his (or her, who knows?) Polish name would be. Suggestions are welcome. But all this is no excuse not to continue, blindly, with vocabulary learning: elektryczność electricity ciemność darkness duch; zjawa ghost All is not lost. There's light at the end of the tunnel--światełko w tunelu?--although I am not in a tunnel, and thank goodness for that. I continue working, sometimes, by a dim little lantern with my paper flash cards. Yes, flash cards. You'd think that with a name like that, they would be illuminating in this particular predicament, but no. Fortunately, I have an extension cord now and this allows me to manage pretty well for work and other stuff. Now if I could just connect a bit of extra energy to myself, I'd really get going! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 6098 days ago 707 posts - 1220 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 13 of 34 01 March 2012 at 9:25am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for posting meramarina, under such trying circumstances too.
Yes, those pesky sibilants are tricky. Have you tried pons.eu online dictionary? You can click next to any word and get an instant pronunciation. Another good online dictionary is the one hosted by the University of Pittsburgh, it has conjugation and declension tables on just about everything. Na końcu = 'at the end of' So, light at the end of the tunnel is 'Światło na końcu tunelu'. It's taken me many months of reading children's books outloud to overcome the horror of consonant clusters, and even now my brain freezes occasionally. Each cluster, although consisting of several letters, is really just one sound. Although a kind of crushed sound we're not familiar with in English. Pronouncing one cluster is fine, but when there's several juxtaposed clusters in one word it gets interesting. For example: oczyszczać ('to cleanse) and zwłaszcza ('especially' / 'most of all'). Hope the electricity returns soon, along with energy levels. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| meramarina Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5960 days ago 1341 posts - 2303 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Italian, French Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 34 01 March 2012 at 11:41pm | IP Logged | ||
Oh, it's not really so bad! The work project should bring in some much needed money, and that means I can GET MORE BOOKS! I'd like to try some easy children's books. I've used them for other languages with good results. The fatigue spells are normal for me, unfortunately, but I've learned to work around them. I found Forvo to be a good resource, too. I was very pleasantly surprised when I requested some pronunciations that weren't on file. Somebody answeres my request within a day, and I was notified by email! The audiovisual discrepancy reminds me a little bit of when I started working on French - I recall thinking so, half of the letters on the page, they don't even use? But English is somewhat similar that way, and more unpredictable, so I won't complain. I know the resources you mentioned, but right now, I fear those conjugation and declension tables. I like the consonant clusters, though, and for some reason, these strange (to me) letter combinations remind of a postcard I have with Welsh words, which I purchased many, many years ago in the UK, and I still have it, but I think it would be faster and easier to head back to the land and buy another one than to locate the one I already have, somewhere. I know, it is a very different language, different family, different letter patterns, and this association is probably kind of stupid, but I guess I have reached the point in which every language reminds me of another language. I will catch up with the rest of the team's logs - promise! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| meramarina Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5960 days ago 1341 posts - 2303 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Italian, French Personal Language Map | Message 15 of 34 04 June 2012 at 2:56am | IP Logged | ||
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No, my Polish log is not dead!
I resumed active study about three weeks ago. And today I had an AMAZING POLISH DAY !!! No joke, I really did! I went to a Polish Heritage Festival anf it was great! I spoke with Polish people - yes, very badly, nothing special, just basic greetings. A few kind folks helped me with pronunciations I have trouble with. I made my first embarrassing stupid public Polish mistake. I had an authentic and absolutely delicious Polish lunch. And, you think, just maybe BOOKS were involved in this adventure? You know me . . . ! More later, I'm a bit tired now. Polish is COOL! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 6098 days ago 707 posts - 1220 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 16 of 34 04 June 2012 at 9:45am | IP Logged | ||
I'd love to know what that was! Glad you had some encouraging interaction, and good food. Tak trzymać.... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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