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[TAC 2014] Learning Russian - Team Катюша | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4700 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 17 of 88 25 September 2013 at 9:59am | IP Logged | |||||
Yeah? So? It's not the best pronunciation guide of Russian I've ever seen, and then what? The world now ends? Sure it's better to pronounce everything properly, but I'd rather people try and end up doing it wrong than not open their mouth. Maybe you will be frustrated, but I know plenty of Russians who would be pretty pleased at ANY attempt. People say я жить москва, я есть блины in the beginning. That's part of the learning process. Berating it for being wrong is the way you discourage people to speak Russian, not encourage people to speak it. If they do so you can always gently (!) correct them to ask them to make it clear. That's not to say that the information is well presented (but IT IS THERE) but it's something else than being entirely blatantly false. A lot of people are simply not going to focus so strongly on the pronunciation as you or I do and they'll still be understood and they'll still enjoy the language. Have a bit more pride that someone bothers and a bit less pride when someone isn't perfect. We're not all linguists. And even I am not a linguist and will happily say the Korean equivalent of I live Paris if I don't know the word for "in", because it's better than shutting up. Edited by tarvos on 25 September 2013 at 10:01am 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5049 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 18 of 88 25 September 2013 at 10:39am | IP Logged | |||||
I'm not berating learners, but textbooks. Of course, you can be understood always. But saying how unimportant Russian pronunciation is is not what a textbook should teach. And things like hard and soft consonants are not details for perfectionists. They are basic stuff. And if the main purpose is to be understood, why does the textbook teach genders or conjugations of verbs? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4700 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 19 of 88 25 September 2013 at 10:55am | IP Logged | |||||
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Because it also teaches the pronunciation. Just not as up front as you would like it.
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| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5049 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 20 of 88 25 September 2013 at 11:23am | IP Logged | |||||
This pronunciation is not Russian! It is invented by the author and has nothing to do with the actual Russian pronunciation. "the details of the small differences between the way Moscow Russian is written and the way it is pronounced" Read every word carefully. It's nonsense upon nonsense. Why are hardness and softness the difference between spelling and pronunciation? All the Russian spelling (graphic) system works to reflect this distinction. The only ambiguity appears due to the fact that e does not always soften the preceding consonant (like Интернет). And of course, the distinction is so well reflected because it is important in Russian. Why Moscow Russian? Hard and soft consonants, vowel reduction and voicing-unvoicing do not exist outside of Moscow? "The details of the small differences" The author is not tired to find the words which would express the little importance of major phonological features of the Russian language. Edited by Марк on 25 September 2013 at 11:24am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6543 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 21 of 88 25 September 2013 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Some points I'd like to make.
1) Марк is absolutely right. Penguin is terrible for teaching pronunciation, and steers the learner in the wrong direction, making her think it's ok not to pronounce the language properly. There's no excuse for this. 2) Russian is about average, difficulty wise, for a native English speaker to pronounce, harder than Japanese and easier that Mandarin, for example, but I wouldn't call it "easy". 3) Native English speakers don't seem to make much of an effort to pronounce it correctly, in my experience, compared to other languages. I have no idea why this is, but most of it probably isn't Penguin's fault. 4) Penguin is easily the best textbook I've found, especially lessons 3-20. The first two lessons should be skipped in favor of something that actually teaches pronunciation, along with audio. The last 10 lessons aren't bad, but there are several "reading lessons" that are too difficult to be where they are, imo. PS - Марк, you might want to read 22.2; it will give you more ammo;) Edited by leosmith on 29 September 2013 at 6:02am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5049 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 22 of 88 25 September 2013 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
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What is 22.2?
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| Cristianoo Triglot Senior Member Brazil https://projetopoligRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4114 days ago 175 posts - 289 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, FrenchB2, English Studies: Russian | Message 23 of 88 25 September 2013 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm not following Penguin's pronounciation rules. I'm studying it with Pimsleur.
I never said that it was easy, or never intend to. I simply found the vocabulary harder than pronouciation. I just don't think it is so hard as people say. It's not easy, but far from impossible. Well... but what do I know? I'm just a beginner trying to learn it. I might be full of wrong first impressions. These were my first impressions, but they might change in time. By the way, what source do you suggest to learn Russian properly? Thanks in advance Edited by Cristianoo on 25 September 2013 at 3:38pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| renaissancemedi Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Greece Joined 4351 days ago 941 posts - 1309 votes Speaks: Greek*, Ancient Greek*, EnglishC2 Studies: French, Russian, Turkish, Modern Hebrew | Message 24 of 88 25 September 2013 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Assimil is very nice. My favourite is the 1970s version. Michel Thomas is good.
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