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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6697 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3649 of 3959 11 July 2014 at 10:42am | IP Logged | ||
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I have now listened to the interview Chris Broholm from ActualFluency.com did with me during a lunch break in Berlin - almost 1 hour, and several of his other interviews are equally long, so you really have a chance to get around a number of themes. The title is "A unique approach to language learning", and that makes me wonder whether a study plan based on the written language and systematic study methods really is that rare ... or is it just so that people who learn through interaction are more liable to tell the world about their activities?
I wonder when the recordings from the lectures will be uploaded to Youtube (or elsewhere). It is clear that editing the lectures or - even worse- adding subtitles will take a lot of work, but those few lectures which have been uploaded don't seem to have been edited in any particular way, and they are still worth watching. Since Berlin I have finished Livius and his tales about the first seven Roman kings (and some of their predecessors) - and several of them appear to have been rather disgusting psychopaths. This project has to some extent ressuscitated my Latin which had become somewhat rusty, and I have also taken up thinking in Latin again. But I'm still lagging far behind mr. David from Sweden, who made an impromptu speech in fluent Latin at the conference about his attempts to teach people to speak the language - including several septuagenarians. I hope I'll be better prepared next time we meet. Berlin has also left ofter marks in my study program. I bought two books in Low German and have read one of them - the other one will become reading stuff in the famous bus-etc. when I have finished my Icelandic collection of printouts. And Esperanto? Well, I also listened to Chris Broholm's interview with Gavin Fantom yesterday - something as (presumably) rare as a native speaker of Esperanto in at least two generations, maybe more. Plus his interview with Austrian Dani Maizner, who told about her Tyrolian dialect during the conference (and kindly obliged in doing some of the speech in that dialect rather than 'normal' German). But this time she speaks in English. Edited by Iversen on 17 July 2014 at 3:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ChrisBroholm Triglot Newbie Denmark actualfluency.com Joined 3916 days ago 17 posts - 27 votes Speaks: English, Danish*, German Studies: Russian, Esperanto | Message 3650 of 3959 12 July 2014 at 1:53am | IP Logged | ||
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Hello again Iversen,
I think the question whether your approach really is unique, or the people doing it are just a verbal minority is quite interesting. Having been in the community for less than a year I can definitely say that I have not seen anyone do what you do, which is why I decided to title it unique. But you are right, the reason I have this feeling is probably because the people who favour an immersion-styled approach with lots of speaking and very little text/grammar work are in a vast majority. Thank you once again for taking the time to sit down with me and also listening to some of my other episodes, it means a lot to me. Have a good weekend! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6697 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3651 of 3959 14 July 2014 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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PLATT: Moin. Mien Moder en Süster en ik heffen op dit Wekenenn Helgoland besöökt, aver üm dat die Fähr uut Büsum üm 9.30 segelt en för de Fohrt 2½ Stuun bruukt, moeten wi een Nocht in Husum sloopen, en wi heffen ook wat Museums besöökt. Als wi wöören unnerwegs no de Theodor Storm-Haus, sah ik tofällig een Antikvariat, en dor höff ik toeminnst een Kilo Bööken op Platt köfft, dorünner een op de mäkelborg-vorpommerse Mondart - aver mit mien nie mäkelborg-vorpommers-platte Wöörbook uut Berlin sal dat keen Problem sien. Aver wat is nu mit de Storm? Hans Theodor Woldsen Storm was een Fryske Schrieversmann en Jurist met'n groot Bart uut Husum, wo he ogenschienlich weltberopen is - he is aver total unbekannt buten. Mien Hotel in Husum was "Hotel Theodor Storm" nöömd, sien Hus in Husum is nu een Museum, in de "Schlott vör Husum" is een "pole Popenspäler"-Museum nöömt na sien Döntje uut 1874 ... un de Küstenwachschipp in Büsum wöör ook Theodor Storm dööpt. Vör mi is düsse Th.Storm aver blots noch enn Hoogdüütsche Dichter - ofschoonst "yn it Noardfryske Husëm (..) beren", hett he nie op Frysk schrefen, en ook nich op Platt. En fanatisch pro-düütsch... woruem schull ik mi met so'n Tyyp befaten?
GER: Gestern besuchten wir dann Helgoland, wo meine Mutter und Schwester zuvor gewesen sind - ich nicht. Aber damals gab es noch Felsen an der Landungsbrücke, und jetzt gibt's stattdessen eine ganze Reihe Hotels. Ihrer Meinung nach ist diese Seite von Helgoland von einem zügellosen Kommerz zerstört geworden. Man hat aber noch das total blöde "Ausbooten" beibehalten: die Fähren warten vor der Küste, und dann kommen kleine Boote mit starken Männer um die Passagiere abzuholen oder loszuwerden. Darauf hätte ich gut verzichten können! Edited by Iversen on 15 July 2014 at 11:26am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4838 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 3652 of 3959 14 July 2014 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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Theodor Storm ist ein ziemlich bekannter deutscher Schriftsteller, auch außerhalb von Husum! Sein bekanntestes Werk ist "Der Schimmelreiter", der oft als Schullektüre herhalten muss. Ich fand das Buch sehr spannend, also würde es sich schon lohnen, sich ein bisschen mit Storm zu befassen, vor allem da er das Leben in Nordfriesland ziemlich eindrucksvoll beschreibt. Aber es stimmt: Auf Friesisch oder Platt hat er nicht geschrieben. Die Schriftsprache war damals schon längst Hochdeutsch. Edited by Josquin on 14 July 2014 at 5:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6697 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3653 of 3959 15 July 2014 at 11:05am | IP Logged | ||
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GER: Ich sah in der Tat auf dem Internet, daβ zumindest der Schimmelreiter in Friesisch und in Platt übersetzt geworden sei - und darüber hinaus auch in eine Reihe von anderen Sprachen, darunter Exoten wie Koreanisch. So vielleicht ist Th.Storm nicht völlig unbekannt ausserhalb Husum. Aber wenn ich nicht diese Stadt besucht hätte, hätte ich keine Ahnung von ihm gehabt.
Stattdessen habe ich jetzt ein Biβchen Tarnow gelesen, obwohl es Literatur und dazu noch auf Versen geschrieben ist. Platt: De Köster Klickermann vun 1921 (op de Titelblatt mit Frakturbookstaven schreven, aver lesbar binnen) is én groote epos vun 'n Man dat gaht en gaht en gaht en gaht, en dat gaht op Jamben de hele weg: Is Frühjohrstied – in Sunneschien, As würd hüt hogen Festdag sien, In Hochtiedstaat un itel Pracht Liggt rings de Ir un lücht un lacht, As wüβt dadum dadum vör Freud' nich ut, Un hett dadum sick as 'ne junge Brut dadum Dadum dadum vör Gluck dadum not faten künn Dadum un .. Un sall ik dat de hele Dag dadum studeer, dan sall mien Kopp ook bald in Jamben gahn dadum, ok dum dadum sall ik mi as en Man dadum da föhl' da én Been lang dadum un dum dadum de önner kort en bündig het dadum. FRA: Et maintenant que nous discutons les pieds de vers et leur impacte sur les lecteurs: il y a un texte que je voudrais tellement bien avoir dans ma collection, mais je l'ai cherché partout pendant des années sans succès: ma travestie sur Phèdre de Racine, que j'ai écrite pendant mes années d'ètudes à l'Université de Århus. J'avait l'idée de transformer Notre Dame en centrale nucléaire sous le nom de Phèdre, et son fils forcément ne pourrait être que le président à l'époque, Valéry Thésee d'Estaing, qui a été chassé et tué par "Mitterand et Marchais, les fauves bêtes,". Tout a été refait en Alexandrins comme chez Racine … et maintenant je ne puis retrouver ce chef-d'oeuvre incontesté qui représente l'apogée de mon activité littéraire. Ceci dit, je ne me souviens plus de la réaction de mon prof.. Edited by Iversen on 15 July 2014 at 11:23am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arnaud25 Diglot Senior Member France Joined 3836 days ago 129 posts - 235 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Russian | Message 3654 of 3959 15 July 2014 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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Your masterpiece is called "un pastiche".
I think it's on purpose that you wrote "les fauves bêtes". It's really well found and amusing :) Edited by Arnaud25 on 15 July 2014 at 11:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6697 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3655 of 3959 16 July 2014 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | ||
I may have read too much German lately - that's where les pastiches are called Travestie. But ultimately the word comes from French "travesti" (verkleidet). I have reread a couple of articles about memorizing and retention of words. One of them has the long name "THE EFFECT OF THE INTEGRATED KEYWORD METHOD ON VOCABULARY RETENTION AND MOTIVATION" (Joerg Hauptmann) - but nevertheless it's quite readable and interesting. First it lists a number of pedagogical traditions (p. 11), where one of the quibs is that vocabulary learning in most traditions is treated as a minor thing which is supposed to happen automatically: “Incidental learning via guessing from context is the most important of all sources of vocabulary learning. This is particularly true for native speakers learning their first language. It should also be true for second language learners, but many do not experience the conditions that are needed for this kind of learning to occur” (Nation, 2001: 234). And that's certainly a relevant observation. From p. 27 and onwards there is an attempt to classify word learning strategies (including a lengthy and boring discussion about terminology), and here I noticed one thing: There is a list of socalled "Direct strategies" (under Memory: things like creating mental links, grouping, associating/elaborating, placing new words in context, applying images and sound, using imagery, semantic mapping, using keywords, representing sounds etc.). Here I thought: why choose? They are all relevant. Shortly after there is a similar list of "Indirect strategies", including "centering your learning" (whatever that is), arranging and planning your learning, evaluating your learning, lowering your anxiety, encouraging yourself, taking your emotional temperature (oral or rectal?) and things like asking questions, co-operating with others, emphasising with others (oh no, not that one).... Here I had to stop because I simply got sick. Which tells a lot about my way of studying languages - only direct methods, please. The keyword method is one way of working with associations, and as the author writes: Mnemonics cause additional – and different – processing. The brain sees the to-be-learnt information from different angles, links the familiar with the new, engages in deep processing, and can therefore anchor it more easily in memory. (...) . True, but also true when using imagery. Finally I would like to quote one surprising result from the world of brain research (p.51): During the treatment of epileptics, involving brain probes, it was discovered that apparently not only the hippocampus is responsible for committing information to long-term memory (if badly damaged, information obtained before this damage is still retained, but not information received after it) but also the neighbouring rhinal cortex, likewise active in memory tests. Patients were asked to try to remember a string of words and then to count backwards from 69 in sections of three. If they could remember words after this counting, the words must have been stored in memory. When patients remembered words, the two regions fired synchronously (Gamma oscillation range 40 hertz). Words that passed the ‘bottleneck’ between hippocampus and rhinal cortex without causing synchronous firing were forgotten. This process was so reliable that the neurosurgeon could predict from the firing of the areas which words the patients would remember later. Phase-synchronisation determines which information will be stored in long-term memory. It was known before that the brain fires with 40 hertz synchronously when processing visual information, but the fact that it also does so when activating memory is new. This could be an indication that most co-ordination and communication relies on this frequency.(. And now I wonder: is it possible to invent some kind of metronome hat that automatically activates this 40hz rhythm in the brain? Apart from that: Peregrinus, Bob and I have a discussion over at Polydog's place where we compare ANKI, Goldlists and my three-columns system, and here I also briefly touch upon the the use of associations during memorizing - including the observation that "Sometimes it is possible to create a bizarre 'story' that covers the whole target, but in my experience it is enough to find memory hooks that references some of it - typically the beginning or a word root in the middle. If you spend too much effort on making 'silly stories' you'll get tired and drop the exercise before time - better go for something less ambitious and be able to carry on forever. ". Edited by Iversen on 16 July 2014 at 2:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6697 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3656 of 3959 16 July 2014 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | ||
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And now for some lite (or light) fare:
I have prepared some bilingual Serbian-Danish texts, and one of the texts I used was taken from www.blic.rs. It tells about about a new French law which prohibits restaurants and other eateries from advertising that they serve 'local food', when they really do is to open a can or pack and heat the content in a micro oven. What a nice law! How come it wasn't implemented long ago? But the relevant point here is that some French dishes were transcribed into RP Srpska Latin letters, and then Google and I added to the confusion by translating the result into Danish. "Bef Burginjon" remained understandable, but "Blanquette de Veau" became "blanket de vo" in Serbian, and that became "tæppe de vo" in Danish, ie. "blanket of Vo". Maybe there also should be a law against serving stolen blankets in French restaurants - especially those stolen from small polyglot girls. D'ailleurs il est possible que ce soit Hippolyte et pas Thésée d'Estaing qui a été tué par des fauves bêtes - qui était des chevaux banals chez Racine: "malheureux fils / Traîné par les chevaux que sa main a nourris.". Je préfère ma version à moi, et elle serait beaucoup plus effrayante à voir sur le grand écran. J'ai pourtant oublié qui a eu l'honneur de jouer Hippolite. Logiquement ça devrait être Raymond Barre, qui avait remplacé Jacques Chirac en 1976. Ou Chirac était (Ch)ippolyte et Barre était (B)aricie. Vraiment, je ne sais plus. By the way, I've just scanned through the tragedy once again, and I find the ending absolutely disgusting: Et, pour mieux apaiser ses mânes irrités, Que, malgré les complots d’une injuste famille, Son amante aujourd’hui me tienne lieu de fille ! Or in other words: Due the the false accusations of Phèdre and his own pleas to the avenging gods, Thésée now has lost his only son, and instead he now takes the opportunity to claim Hippolite's completely innocent girl friend as his daughter without even asking her! What a dirty old man! Edited by Iversen on 17 July 2014 at 12:22am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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