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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
Tags: Multilingual | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes  1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 785 of 3959 28 April 2009 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
NL: Bedankt, Jar-ptisa voor voor de leuke feliciatie! Het is niet vanzelfsprekend dat ik zo snel een nieuwe baan kon vinden, want in Duitsland is de werkloosheid groot. Maar er zijn veel callcenter banen in de aanbieding en ik heb op dat gebied nu beroepservaring. Ik heb me inderdaad een statief gekocht, want het kan zijn dat wij de productie van taal-videos leuk vinden, dan zou het wel lonend zijn, om met goede apparatuur te werken. Ik kan met zo'n ding nog helemaal niet omgaan, dus ik ben hier net met "trial and error" aan het knoeien. In ieder geval heb ik al veel zin in dit project. Fasulye-Babylonia Edited by Fasulye on 29 April 2009 at 10:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6696 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 786 of 3959 28 April 2009 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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DK: Også tillykke fra mig, - det er godt at du nu har sikret dig økonomisk,
Also congratulations ("zum Glück") from me - It is good that you now have secured you economically, så du kan studere sprog og astronomi og alverdens andre ting so you can study language and astronomy and all-world's other things uden at skulle bruge tid på at søge job (og spekulere på, without to must use time on to search job (and speculate on, hvorfra pengene til kamerastativer og andet grej skal komme). wherefrom moneyThe for camera-stands and other gear shall come). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 787 of 3959 28 April 2009 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Mange tak! så du kan studere sprog og astronomi og alverdens andre ting uden at skulle bruge tid på at søge job - Ja, det hjaelpt god. Fasulye på dansk DE: Ja, der "schnöde Mammon" (= Geld) muss auch zumindest in ausreichendem Maße vorhanden sein, sonst wird das Leben etwas anstrengend. Dazu soll ja der Job dienen. Edited by Fasulye on 28 April 2009 at 8:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| hoseline Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5682 days ago 10 posts - 11 votes | Message 788 of 3959 28 April 2009 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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free language learning resources for learners just in case you dont know them yet they should be really useful
http://www.econtrader.com http://www.babbel.com http://www.busuu.com http://www.livemocha.com 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6696 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 789 of 3959 28 April 2009 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Those who have followed this log may remember that I visited the Philippiners in January and got quite interested in the Philippino language (which is more or less the same as Tagalog, but as the national language - alongside with English - it had to get a more neutral name, - the Tagalog are however just the people who live around Manila, and there are dozens of other population groups in the country with their own languages.
However I simply don't have time to learn a new language that is so different from those I already know, so I had to let it slip into oblivion again. But I was reminded of its existence through a thread on ergativity* on this forum. I'm not going to discuss this theme again, but I'll just say that the more I learn about this notion the more fuzzy it becomes. It reminds me more and more about other sweeping generalisations like the one that divides all languages in groups like SVO, OVS and so forth. Maybe these broad labels are relevant in a theoretical discussion, but they are far from precise enough to help a prospective language learner. Nevertheless ergativity was the buzzword that got me interested in Tagalog (and to some degree Cebuan) in the first place, and spurred on by the thread mentioned above I went on a hunt for a good online grammar. And lo and behold, I found one: http://www.seasite.niu.edu . You find the grammar section here, but there are also courses and a lot of background material, - in short an excellent site for people who are interested in Tagalog alias Pilipino. One of the most useful things I found was a verb list based on roots, not on the affix-ridden infinitive, and sorted after the English translation. Now, Tagalog verbs are dont really have tenses, but rather aspects: there is an infitive, an imperative, a 'completed' form, an 'incompleted' form and a 'contemplated' form. These last three normally will be translated to our past, present and future, but in reality they aren't tied to a timeline - this is done through the use of adverbials and other clues. On top of that the verbs are divided into groups according to their affixes, and these affixes are used to indicate the 'focus' structure of the verbs. You indicate that a certain thing or person 'has the focus' with the word 'ang', but 'ang' is used both with subjects and objects (that must be the reason for seeing the language as ergative). To find out what it is you study the verb: certain affixes makes the verb active (i.e. an 'ang'-thing will be the subject or agent of the phrase), others make it passive (i.e. the ang-thing will then be the logical object). However my previous sources didn't mention that still others gives it a locative/directional value, a 'beneficiary' value or an instrumental value. And none of my previous sources told me that you can form active, passive and other versions of a certain verb from its root in a fairly consistent way. Take for instance the root for 'eat', "kain". With the affix -um- you can form the active forms(i.e. those with 'actor focus'), including the infinitive "kumain", which I already knew - but which is absent from the tables of the seasite-site. To conjugate this you have to be aware that there is a 'reduplication element', which generally consists of the first consonant and the following vowel of the root, here "ka". Notice how the -um- splits the root: root: kain (infinitive: kumain) completed: kumain incomplete: kumakain contemplated: kakain But there is more: with the affix -in- you get the passive forms, i.e. those with 'object focus', - note again how the affixes split the root, though in a different pattern: completed: kinain incomplete: kinakain contemplated: kakainin This may sound a bit complicated, but there is a strict logic behind it which just is very very different from the one I have known from my previous languages. *Ergativity is a type of language where the subject of an intransitive verb is in the same case as the object of a transitive verb, - the subject of the latter then has to be in some other case, never mind which one. It has been said that Tagalog is an ergative language. Edited by Iversen on 29 April 2009 at 1:43am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6696 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 790 of 3959 29 April 2009 at 1:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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LAT: Aestimatio vocabulari hodie duobus glossariis linguae latinae fundata est. Glossarium magnum scolasticum Langenscheidti affirmatus est 80.000 vocabula expressionesque continere, et non facile est sine enumeratione laboriose numerum vocabulorum cognoscere sine expressionibus. Quaecum ita est, numerum 'lexemorum' in paginibus meditatibus enumeravi et aestimationem calculavi - modo 20.500 lexemata in glossarii inveniuntur. Et ego ex istibus modo 10.800 cognovi, id est 52%. Cum glossario Latine ac Anglice "New College" (liber in Manila emptus) modo 8.900 obtinui.Etiam ille indicat numerum vocabulorum cum expressionibus (circa 35.000 ), et aestimatio mea 'lexemorum' in paginis perscrutatis est de circa 20.400 vocabulis (cum nominis propriis), igitur pars nota ex vocabulario perlecto 43% est. Vero melius sit etiam aestimationes anteriores refacere ex paginis perlectibus et non indicationibus libri confidere. Listae anteriores adhuc habeo, ita possibile est.
Today's word counts are based on two Latin dictionaries that both indicate the total number of words including expressions, - and if my samples give the correct picture, then the number of lexemes is much smaller than the official 80.000 resp. 35.000 words-cum-expressions. So I should get a more realistic estimate of the percentage of known lexemes by also noting down the number of lexemes on the relevant pages and using these numbers as the base for my estimate of the proportion of known words. My word counts for Latin are lower than those that I have calculated for modern languages, - this is not just the result of sloppiness and mediocrity, but also an indication of the bias of my dictionaries. The "New College" bidirectional dictionary (which I bought in Manila) is by a wide margen the best in this respect because it also tries to give translations for modern phenomena, where the others just consider the classical authors; however it is too small to yield a high score on a word count. I can't be satisfied with estimates of 10.800 and 8.900 words, but considering the dictionaries I have - and which I also have to use for my word counts - the numbers are probably as high as I could expect them to be. I just have to read Ephemeris more often and do some Neolatin or at least postmedieval wordlists. Edited by Iversen on 29 April 2009 at 11:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5840 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 791 of 3959 29 April 2009 at 8:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||
EN: The general problem is is that there are so very few dictionaries available which include modern Latin. I have got my "Pons Schüerwörterbuch Latein" for that, but in Germany I haven't seen any other dictionaries for modern Latin. In the Netherlands Latin dictionaries are generally rare, because only very few pupils at school learn Latin there. I have never encounterd a dictionary of modern Latin in the Netherlands. As I would suppose you should find such bilingual dictionaries in Italy, because the Vatican is the eminent promotor of modern Latin. Haven't you looked around there in Milano for a suitable modern Latin dictionary? Fasulye-Babylonia Edited by Fasulye on 29 April 2009 at 10:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6696 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 792 of 3959 29 April 2009 at 11:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Si, ma non ho trovato un dizionario di questa genera a Milano, - ma Roma e il Vaticano sono lontanissimi visto da Milano. Ci sono qualche liste di parole moderne sull'internet, e dovrebbe essere possibile anche di trovare un dizionario del latino medievale e tardivo, ma non ho mai visto un tale dizionario.
Il mio dizionario Inglese<->Latino è il migliore in questo rispetto tra i miei dizionari - l'ho trovato in Manila, ma dato che i Filipini sono dei cattolici ferventi questo non è troppo sorprendente. È più sorprendente che ci mancano qualche parole e frasi estremament comune nei miei due dizionari Latino<->Danese, e non solamente parole tecniche o scientifiche. Pare che si ha fatto una collezione di schedi che rappresentano le parole e frasi usati per fare un dizionario Latino-> Danese, ed poi si ha creduto che basti tornare le stesse carte e prendere queste traduzioni e solamente queste traduzione per comporre un dizionario nel senso opposto. Questo non funziona, - si deve collezzionare le parole e frasi realmente usati dalla populazione generale. Questo è la centesima pagina del mio log. Triunfo. Edited by Iversen on 29 April 2009 at 11:16am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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