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Shadowing: yay or nay? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes  Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 34 of 67 10 July 2008 at 3:41am | IP Logged | ||||||||
In short, shadowing tends to lead to a non-native accent. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| charlmartell Super Polyglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6243 days ago 286 posts - 298 votes Speaks: French, English, German, Luxembourgish*, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 35 of 67 10 July 2008 at 4:51am | IP Logged | ||||||||
You don't really mean that, do you? Not automatically improving your active output maybe, but certainly not leading to a non-native accent, as that is what we start off with. So we can only improve. I voted yes, though I don't actually shadow, I repeat (on my own) and chorus (for pronunciation, in a group). In my case there is always a time lag. As a teacher I use chorusing, in beginners' groups only, sa that everyone, including the shy ones, gets a chance at trying to actively produce the foreign tongue. And the combined output sounds pretty convincing whereas individual output mostly does not. But I never do slavish repeating of things I don't understand, unless it's in a conversation to question something I haven't understood.
Now that I don't understand either. How can you stop listening when you speak? Don't you ever listen to yourself? Open your mouth and babble without thinking? Of course you don't. Only idiots do and you are by no means an idiot. As for brisk walk versus moving slowly, you've lost me here too. Have you really not noticed that if we move briskly we immediately feel better, invigorated, brighter? Well, I do. But you're right about the mild trance state, though I call it daydreaming or hibernating. Brisk, not hurried or frantic, brisk action is supposed to keep us alert and active, not slow shambling along. Go for a brisk walk for half an hour and you feel good, walk slowly for half an hour and you're tired, want to put your feet up. Well, maybe you don't, but I do and everyone else I know does too, brisk keeps us awake, slow puts us to sleep, body and mind.
Did you prepare your post in some editor or other and then do a copy-paste? I often do and then have to check the result in the "Preview Post" window. A real mess at times, so I have to go over it and re-wrap. A bit of a bore, but it happens elsewhere as well.. If I type my message in a full window in Outlook Express the drat program messes it up when sending. So I now do all my drafting in a reduced frame. One of those quirks of technology I suppose.. Edited by charlmartell on 10 July 2008 at 4:53am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 36 of 67 10 July 2008 at 5:08am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I do really mean that. I've seen that it's possible to get a native accent despite years of speaking with a heavy one, but this seems to be both rare and difficult. Shadowing is a good way to improve your accent, but it seems to hit a limit, and even careful shadowing seems to leave at least some people with heavy accents. As I've said in other posts, I'm currently intrigued by the idea of avoiding early production. Until I've gathered more evidence/experience, I cannot say whether it is a better alternative. I've shadowed fairly extensively. I found it valuable. I am now experimenting elsewhere.
Sure, what you say about group chorusing is quite true. Whether shadowing comes in the form of slavishly repeating that which is not understood is a side issue. I've done that form as well; while it's worse in most ways, it seems to be about the same phonetically. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6856 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 38 of 67 10 July 2008 at 8:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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A friend of mine who's been learning Spanish on his own for the last few years just started shadowing, and says he noticed things about Spanish pronunciation he had never noticed before, like how a word that ends in a vowel tends to run into the next word that starts with a vowel. I can't tell if it's helped his own pronunciation, but it is something he became aware of naturally, and that's got to mean something.
I listen, I shadow. I think it's something worthwhile, but not worth analyzing too much. It's important to let the subconscious mind do the work and not think too much, lest you suffer from paralysis by analysis. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 39 of 67 10 July 2008 at 8:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||
My formulation wasn't precise - I stop listening to the external voice, but I certainly do hear my own voice. In fact that's the only voice I hear while I'm talking, and that's the problem. If I just think along or even if I get into a mental discussion with the external speaker I can still listen, it is the physical act of talking that disturbs my listening. As for the walking I tend to get restless if I don't move at all, so if I really have to concentrate it is better to do some kind of movement that can run more or less by itself. Slow walking is OK, but walking fast forces me to take care of my surroundings and therefore it doesn't help me to concentrate, on the contrary. I like to walk, I often walk fairly fast and I can observe my surroundings while I do so, but the faster I walk the less I think. Edited by Iversen on 10 July 2008 at 9:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ChrisWebb Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6262 days ago 181 posts - 190 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Korean | Message 40 of 67 10 July 2008 at 10:20am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I attempted shadowing Korean but I abandoned the enterprise as far too difficult, I'm fairly certain at this point that just listening very carefully is more effective for me.
If I learn another foreign language at some point I will probably avoid talking early altogether and just concentrate on input for an extended period. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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