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Modern Italian and Operatic Italian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6707 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 17 of 27 26 August 2006 at 4:26am | IP Logged |
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I assume that Permesso is a person (or maybe Permission personified?) because it is written with a capital letter. But frankly I haven't a clue as to whom it might be.
Edited by Iversen on 26 August 2006 at 4:31am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6772 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 18 of 27 26 August 2006 at 4:38am | IP Logged |
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I've read Italian has changed much more slowly than English. Italians today can still (apparently) read Dante, but Middle English works from the same period are largely incomprehensible to modern English speakers.
The ability to understand older material varies according to one's level of education, social class, and exposure to literature, of course. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6707 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 19 of 27 26 August 2006 at 4:51am | IP Logged |
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Of all the (major) Romance languages French has probably changed most. At least it must be fairly hard for a modern-day French speaker to read "Conte du Graal" in the original version from around 1200 (Chrétien de Troyes). From around 1500-1600 it ressembles modern literary French, but that is mainly due to the fact that the orthography became more or less frozen soon after while the spoken language continued to develope.
Both Spanish, Catalan and Italian from 1100 onwards can be read by modern people with some difficulty, and from 1500-1600 there are few problems, at least in standard prose. For instance you will find some unexpected x'es in Spanish (Mexico!) where modern Spanish has j. As for Romanian I'm blank, but I don't think you would find any samples from around 1100, maybe from 1500-1600. As for Catalan the great Ramon Llull (1232-1315) is still legible today. I personally like to be able to read texts by people like Boccaccio and Dante in the original without having studied old Italian. You always lose something in translations, even though it is just a modernization of the language in question. As for English I think the difficulty of late medieval texts is often exaggerated. While nobody would be able to read Beowulf without having studied Anglo-Saxon, I think educated people ought to be able to understand most of this quote from Canterbury Tales by Chaucer (app.1343-1400): "Hoo!" quod the Knyght, "good sire, namoore of this, That ye han seyd is right ynough, ywis, And muchel moore; for litel hevynesse Is right ynough to muche folk, I gesse. Source: www.luminarium.org Edited by Iversen on 14 July 2008 at 6:50am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| lengua Senior Member United States polyglottery.wordpre Joined 6688 days ago 549 posts - 595 votes Studies: French, Italian, Spanish, German | Message 20 of 27 26 August 2006 at 7:29am | IP Logged |
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^ It's less troublesome to figure out when you read it aloud.
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| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6707 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 21 of 27 26 August 2006 at 8:13am | IP Logged |
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If I try to read it aloud it sounds a wee bit like Scots. Some day when I have a lot of free time I'll try to find out how Middle English is supposd to be pronounced.
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| alcina Groupie United Kingdom Joined 6701 days ago 51 posts - 54 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, Italian | Message 22 of 27 28 August 2006 at 12:27pm | IP Logged |
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I have come at this from the other side! :) I originally trained as an opera
singer and "operatic Italian" was all the Italian I knew. I specialised in Early Music so I know Monteverdi reasonably well, but I do go as far forward as Mozart :) I decided that to help me with my singing I'd take an Italian class and I signed up for a year of "Buongiorno Italia" (a BBC Italian course) at a local College. It was helpful, but there was still a sort of "translation" I needed to to to understand librettos - I can only describe it as "classifying" the Italian. The funniest part of it was at the end of the course when we all sat and watched an Italian film set around the 17th Century. When it had finished most of the class were saying "What was all that 'voi' stuff, I couldn't understand it?", I hadn't even noticed they were using "voi" because "voi" meaning "you" is standard operatic speak! It did help though with understanding librettos overall though, particualy comedy operas. One event springs to mind, I was watching "Le nozze di Figaro" - in Act III after the familial revelations they're disussing when to get married and Marcellina leaps in with "Oggi!". I laughed out loud (ok maybe I ought to get out more!) having understood the word and the intention directly...most of the audience had to wait for the surtitles to catch up. Actually, a tale from the other side of the footlights, most singers don't like surtitles in opera - you sing your little guts out, enunciating and interpreting as clearly as possibly and it all falls on deaf ears until the audience reads the surtitles. They laugh at the surtitles not your acting...completely spoils any sense of timing and phrasing! Anyhow...I'll try to stop rambling and come back on thread...in my experience "Operatic Italian" and "Modern Italian" are different, but not so different that you totally can't understand one from the other. It's more to do with phrasing than actual words. It's the difference between saying "Prithee my good man bring me a cup of your finest java" and "I'd like a cappuccino please". :) Alcina 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| alcina Groupie United Kingdom Joined 6701 days ago 51 posts - 54 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, Italian | Message 23 of 27 28 August 2006 at 12:57pm | IP Logged |
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By the way...regarding the Monteverdi Orfeo libretto: "Permesso" is the
name of a river of Boeotia which was sacred to the Muses. If you want to learn "Operatic Italian" you also should look up who's who in the Ancient World because 99% of all early operas are based on Classical Mythology! :) Comes in handy when faced with obscure Pub Quiz questions! :) Alcina 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6707 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 24 of 27 28 August 2006 at 3:14pm | IP Logged |
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I knew that Orfeo was based on the Greek Orpheus & Eurydike legend, so I expected Permesso to be a person or nymph or something like that, or maybe a personified notion, - I didn't for a moment suspect that Permesso referred to a river in Boeotia. But of course I should have looked it up.
I noticed that Italian is not on your profile, even though you sing in Italian and have had courses in the language. Wouldn't it be an easy addition to your repertoire? Edited by Iversen on 28 August 2006 at 3:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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