A continuation of the endless I/O talk (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

A continuation of the endless I/O talk
Share with: Delicious Digg reddit Facebook StumbleUpon
Language Learning Forum : General discussion

126 messages over 16 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 5 ... 15 16 Next >>

slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6674 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes

4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

Message 33 of 126

27 November 2008 at 1:29pm | IP Logged

Cainntear wrote:

slucido wrote:

Reinforcement is measured by the results: increased behavior.

So it doesn't matter whether it's correct behaviour or not, in your opinion...?

We are reinforcing the correct behavior: input and output in the target language.

Cainntear wrote:

Re: "method"

Quote:

I am using the standard terminology. I am using different focus.

Rubbish. You've made your own definition simply in order to avoid debate. If you redefine "no" to mean "yes", you can claim that no-one ever refuses you anything. This isn't productive behavior.

I am using different focus. You are focusing in linguistic methods and I am focusing in BEHAVIORAL methods.

Cainntear wrote:

Quote:

If you use methodology X, but this methodology X is deadly boring for you, you will fail. It doesn't matter zealots or sales rep say otherwise.

This is true. But learning is genuinely interesting and stimulating. A good course, therefore, isn't boring to the vast majority of the target audience. A bad course is only interesting to a minority.

If you review this forum, you will be aware this is wrong.

People here love pimsleur and hate pimsleur, love Assimil and hate Assimil, love M.Thomas and hate M.Thomas.

And these methods are only the first step, introductions. The main work comes later, with the language itself.

Cainntear wrote:

Yes, but the mistakes have been fossilised by repetition. You keep saying them, so they stick. They need to be consciously fixed, using an appropriately tuned method.

Tuned? You only need repetition. This methods are the simplest thing. Nothing new nothing special.

Cainntear wrote:

Quote:

For example, several gurus claim that learning a language starting by reading is a bad method....but they are WRONG. If your main motivation is reading books, this is your first and best method, because if you start with their magic, incredible methods, you will fail miserably and you will quit.

As I said, paper presents the opportunity to adopt strategies that do not and cannot work in spoken language.
Strategies that work for spoken language, however, can be transferred to written language, and additional strategies can be adopted to refine the process.

You can record your speech and a teacher give you feedback. It doesn't matter. Whatever method you need endless repetition and usage of the language.

Cainntear wrote:

Quote:

Sales rep, gurus and zealots are very dangerous. Don't follow them. Follow your feelings.

Do you say the same about medecine? I'd take the doctor's advice over my "feelings" if I got a life-threatening disease.

This is an example of false analogy.

We have an evidence based medicine, but we have a chaotic-evidence based SLA.
Even if you have a physical illness, it's better your doctor to listen your feelings and opinions. Subjectivity is highly important in health.

Edited by slucido on 27 November 2008 at 3:16pm
1 person has voted this message useful

slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6674 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes

4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

Message 34 of 126

27 November 2008 at 1:35pm | IP Logged

Cainntear wrote:

slucido wrote:

1-The right method will be reinforcing for this person and will produce the desire reactión and MAYBE this person will believe his method has intrinsic qualities...and will argue against me...Is it possible? Yes it is.

2-If your method lack input or output, your method is wrong, but it doesn't matter because in the long run you have only the target language and you. If this method keep your motivation enough, you will arrive at the second and more important step.

Paraphrasing:
All methods are good. Except some are bad. But it doesn't matter if it's bad, because you'll learn the language anyway.

In effect, you are saying that even with a method that teaches you nothing, you will still learn the language.

Logically, your implication is that all methods are worthless, because they don't assist you in learning the language.

Following from this, it seems illogical that you advise following any method at all.
The logical conclusion (based on your dubious premises) is that methods are valueless, and that you should simply expose yourself to the language.

But what would you do with the language you observed? If you are not completely passive, you are following a method. If you are completely passive, you are following a method.

This is a total paradox.

What do you find so difficult to grasp?

All methods are good as long as they have input and output.

If your method don't have input or output, your method is BAD, very bad.

Therefore you need a method, ANY METHOD, with output and input.

BUT you need a REINFORCING method .

Why?

Because you need to use this method long enough to be fluent in your target language.

If you give up your method, whatever method, is bad.

If you follow endlessly your method and it has input-output, your method is good and you will succeed.

Conclusion:

You need an very REINFORCING input-output method , because you need to work endlessly.

Easy.

Edited by slucido on 28 November 2008 at 8:58am
1 person has voted this message useful

slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6674 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes

4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

Message 35 of 126

27 November 2008 at 2:24pm | IP Logged

Cainntear wrote:

Because you said:
It doesn't matter what method you use, as long as you don't give up.
If it doesn't matter which method you use, then why should I do one that's hard work?

So we'll only do the "fun" stuff, logically.

No. If I do hard work and I get results, this is reinforcing for me.
Reinforcing can be fun, but not always.

Cainntear wrote:

EDIT:
Plus, you have committed another fatally simple error: the negative particle in English is "not", not "no".

This is one of the simplest fundamental points of English, taught in some of the earliest stages of learning, so I'm absolutely positive that you will have been exposed to this in massive amounts of input, but this has not been translated to output.

The reason you do this is because:
1) "not" is similar to the Spanish "no"
2) "not" and "no" in English both translate to the Spanish "no"
A good method would identify this as one of the most common errors for Spanish speakers of English and make sure that this was properly learnt. Anyone who knows a lot of Spanish people will be well aware that this problem does not solve itself with time and needs considerable conscious effort. (On the part of the teacher.)

Ok Ok, tomorrow I will fire my English teacher.

Edited by slucido on 27 November 2008 at 3:23pm
1 person has voted this message useful

slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6674 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes

4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

Message 36 of 126

27 November 2008 at 3:11pm | IP Logged

JohnnyR wrote:

I think he's just trying to get across that if you dont quit then youre doing 'his method', but yes thats pretty much the same thing as its not really a method its just not giving up. If you never give up you always complete your task and if you do give up then you're not doign his method which means his method has a 100% success rate and is the best in the world as it will always get you to native fluency. Nobody else has a method which can do that which means slucido is some sort of a genius. At least...thats how i see him.

Don't give up is the desired goal.

My question is:

What do people who don't quit do?

Our goal is maintaining a behavior, therefore we need a
behavioral method and not a linguistic one, because the linguist one is simple: whatever method with input, output and repetition.

Summarizing up:

We need:

1-Linguistic method: whatever with output and input.

2-Behavioral method: maintaining our behavior, i.e. our linguistic method.

Edited by slucido on 27 November 2008 at 3:14pm
1 person has voted this message useful

reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 6446 days ago
851 posts - 1008 votes

Studies: German

Message 37 of 126

27 November 2008 at 5:00pm | IP Logged

slucido wrote:

DaraghM wrote:

I'm confused. Is slucido saying that whatever method you use, and it works, is his method ?

Works if you have input, output and you do NOT give up.

DaraghM wrote:

Isn't that like going into a betting shop and saying, "I'd like to put my money on the winning horse" ?

Metaphorically speaking, yes. However this is much easier. Our winning horse is whatever method with input output and REINFORCING.

He's hobbling all the horses except the one he's riding while at the same time claiming that all the winning horses are his.
1 person has voted this message useful

Cainntear
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Scotland
linguafrankly.blogsp
Joined 6010 days ago
4399 posts - 7687 votes

Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh

Message 38 of 126

27 November 2008 at 5:07pm | IP Logged

slucido wrote:

We are reinforcing the correct behavior: input and output in the target language.

Define "the target language". How many fundamental errors does it take before what you are speaking ceases to be English?

Quote:

I am using different focus. You are focusing in linguistic methods and I am focusing in BEHAVIORAL methods.

What on Earth do you mean by this? The behaviour that you want is language!!

Quote:

Cainntear wrote:

A good course, therefore, isn't boring to the vast majority of the target audience. A bad course is only interesting to a minority.

If you review this forum, you will be aware this is wrong.

No, I am aware that many people here disagree with me. I still believe I'm right, but I accept that very many people disagree with me.

Quote:

Cainntear wrote:

Yes, but the mistakes have been fossilised by repetition. You keep saying them, so they stick. They need to be consciously fixed, using an appropriately tuned method.

Tuned? You only need repetition. This methods are the simplest thing. Nothing new nothing special.

Repetition of WHAT???? If I repeat a list of breeds of dog in any language ad infinitum, I will not learn that language.

Your course must be tuned to ensure that you repeat appropriate material, otherwise you (for example) end up confusing "this" and "these", or saying "no" in place of "not".
1 person has voted this message useful

reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 6446 days ago
851 posts - 1008 votes

Studies: German

Message 39 of 126

27 November 2008 at 6:46pm | IP Logged

Sluicido,

You could have expressed yourself in this manner:

The best approach is to keep studying/doing the language. Do what you have to keep going, regroup and attack with whatever you think is the best approach or whatever you think is palatable and acceptable. For most people ensuring success is more important than Spartan efficiency. I have no problem with this, I would actually support it but it does not change the fact that one approach will objectively achieve better/faster results than another. I am not defending a particular method. I do not terribly care for language courses or methods. I don't like witch doctors and your lack of logic is painful to watch.

You suggest that a person’s giving up automatically means that the method was bad. Countless others will achieve success. The method was therefore sound whether through its intrinsic quality or simply because of the presence of what you call input/output. Blaming the book is a good trick but it’s still a trick and one that cannot be used too many times.

Modern courses are structured so as to motivate/encourage the learner and reinforce good behavior. Your mantra reduces all the methods to language exposure (plus marketing/faith). This undermines everything, including their marginal utility as motivators and eventually leads people to engage mostly in pleasurable activities and follow the path of the least resistance. The problem with this approach is that while overindulging in one area, it creates terrible deficiencies elsewhere.

You gloss over the fact that different approaches/courses offer different types of exposure. You believe that this is not important because whatever method employed, the task is endless and never completed. You believe that in order to achieve perfection one needs an immeasurable amount of time whereby any advantage gained through particular methods pales in comparison.

“Endless work” is not a very fortunate expression. You place too little value on people’s time.

1 person has voted this message useful

JohnnyR
Groupie
United Kingdom
how-to-learn-any-lan
Joined 5844 days ago
47 posts - 47 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Portuguese, Japanese

Message 40 of 126

27 November 2008 at 6:49pm | IP Logged

This just sounds like stating the obvious to me. 'You need to practice and you need to keep practicing' that is all this is and it actually seems silly to even talk about it.

1 person has voted this message useful

This discussion contains 126 messages over 16 pages: << Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Next >>

Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum

This page was generated in 0.4375 seconds.