|
 |
A continuation of the endless I/O talk | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 49 of 126 28 November 2008 at 10:39am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
When natives write, they make horrendous mistakes. When natives speak, they make horrendous mistakes. When they use different dialects, they don't understand between themselves. And they usually say that people from other dialects don't talk properly. You only need reading this forum or other forums, including this thread.
And you tell us this argument isn't fallacious: ad hominem plus red-herring. If I understand you (and Volte) are saying I make "non-native" mistakes....So the problem is I don't make native mistakes...So I am non-native guilty of doing non-native mistakes.... Your syllogism is: 1-Slucido claim: "If you have input and output, the most important factor is INTENSITY and TIME" 2-Slucido make non-native mistakes. 3-Ergo Slucido is wrong. Please, explain me this logic, because it seems awful. On the other hand, I am not the only one who claims that. Read this article from FSI. Maybe you and Volte think they are morons and they make a lot of non-native mistakes. Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching http://digital.georgetown.edu/gurt/1999/gurt_1999_07.pdf
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 50 of 126 28 November 2008 at 10:50am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Is it possible to generate output without being carefully copied in the very beginning stage? If we don't have anything, how can we give something? Edited by slucido on 28 November 2008 at 10:50am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| glossa.passion Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6320 days ago 267 posts - 349 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, EnglishC1, Danish Studies: Spanish, Dutch | Message 51 of 126 28 November 2008 at 10:52am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
|
My humble knowledge about behaviour and reinforcement:
The way I learned it at school, I admit decades ago during my training as a certified social education governess (what a horrible expression!), the concept of behaviour and reinforcement requires a certain guidance from an „authority“. Someone who uses reinforcement (positive and negative) in a deliberate way to train a desired behaviour on another person. And this authority decides in general, what is right or wrong and accordingly the desired behaviour. Take for exampel parents bringing up their children. If I transfer this behavourial concept to the self-study of languages, who would be then the overall authority to guide me and judge my results? Beware, according to the concept, there must be someone, who „knows“ more than you. If I do all by myself, I consequently do not fullfil this concept, even if I use now and then guidance in some fields like pronounciation or grammar. But in reverse conclusion does that not mean, I can’t study languages on my own! It only shows for me, that the behavourial concept is not adaptive in this case. Nevertheless I find it interesting to apply the idea of the behaviour/reinforcement concept in language study. It would require an authority, let me call it a language coach. The coach should be a native speaker of my target language, should have studied languages on his own (and be fluent in at least one) and be able to advise a student in an appropriate manner. We would agree upon the aim of my language study. I would start with language studies on my own and meet him regularly. During the meetings I would explain, what I’ve done – my input and he would then check my output. He would review my achievements and advise me, to go further the present path of studies and/or would point out additional ways. He would also identify minor and big errors I’ve made in the target language and tell me, where I should keep an eye on. He would accompany me as long as I’ve reached the goal– or am able to pay him :-) Edited by glossa.passion on 28 November 2008 at 1:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| ChrisWebb Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6262 days ago 181 posts - 190 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Korean | Message 52 of 126 28 November 2008 at 10:59am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
If it's carefully copied I'm not really clear how it's really output in any meaningful sense? Aside of my general disagreement ( as fully explained in the previous thread ) with the idea that all methods are equal I would suspect that output is not in fact necessary early in the learning process, I think an arguement can be made that it should probably only occur once a fairly large amount of input has occurred and the learner has some intuition regarding the grammar. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 53 of 126 28 November 2008 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I suppose it's a matter definitions. You are regurgitating (production) what you have just received and you are receiving correction or feedback. I guess Pimsleur and Shadowing is something like this.
I am surprised. I am not saying all methods are equal. Just the opposite. I am saying just the opposite. Please, explain what do you think I think. Some people here think my English is a big crap. If that it's true, maybe you are thinking I am thinking something different to what I am really thinking. I am really worried about that. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 54 of 126 28 November 2008 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Natives can't make spoken mistakes, by definition. The language is as it is spoken by people. If your grammar books tell you that what a native says is wrong, it is the grammar books that are wrong. Any "errors" we write as natives (and this of course includes you when in Catalan or Castillian) are either: 1) us writing as we speak, not as your grammar book says 2) a simple mis-typed or mispelt word 3) us thinking quicker than we can type and accidentally skipping a word 4) introduced by later review and editing (so not spontaneous) Natives errors are made on the fly, while your errors in English are made consistently because you have an incorrect model. The argument is entirely valid. To summarise, once more, what all three of us are saying: Your mistakes arise from a incorrect understanding of the language.
None of us here deny this. But nowhere in the paper does it claim that method is irrelevant. I think everyone here, whether zealous supporters of a particular method or not, agrees that no method alone will teach you to fluency -- real exposure is needed. What almost everyone agrees, though, is that neither trumps the other -- both are vital. You are trying to reduce language to one single factor, which grossly oversimplifies the matter.
It's a very compelling argument, but I would like to use Michel Thomas as a counter-example. His students produce grammatically dense and varied sentences from the very start. The question of meaning is important, and some would argue that the sentences Thomas uses aren't meaningful. I would say that the lack of explicit meaning allows the student to interpret the received sentence in a more personal way -- compare "I need it" to "I need a TV", and you'll see that "I need it" is more readily personalised, as your brain tries to fill in the conceptual gap left by "it". If you don't like TV, "I need a TV" isn't internally meaningful. Every language item that is presented must be completely understood internally for the student to be able to complete the tasks set. A receptive syllabus, on the other hand, can be completed by gist understanding and educated guessing. An efficient brain then discards the rest of the information as irrelevant. At a later date, the learner has to go back and convince the brain that what wasn't important before is now important, while the MT learner knows the importance of everything. The learner then very quickly gets an understanding of a great breadth of grammar, which can then be used in both production and reception. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 55 of 126 28 November 2008 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
|
gloosa.passion, thank you for your question. I think we can start with interesting questions. First, I would like to clarify the term "reinforcement", because I think is misleading. This is a technical term and it doesn't mean bribe, reward, fun or easy. A lot of times it is, but not always. Reinforcement occurs when an event following a response causes an increase in the probability of that response occurring in the future. Reinforcement is measured by the results, but NOT our intention. For example, some people here attack my English and some of them are asking me to shut up. Apparently they try to use punishment to decrease my behavior. What's the result? I am increasing the behavior they try to punish. I am writing more emails. From a behavioral perspective, these attacks are reinforcements. Conclusion: Something boring, aversive or negative actions can be a positive reinforcer (increased behavior)
You are right. This concepts are very successfully applied to teaching, parenting, management and so on. Can you apply this methods to yourself? Yes. It's name is self management. You have your goals and you reinforce behaviors towards your goals. You keep practicing the language. If you want, we can talk about that and maybe we can generate good ideas and help each other.
You can use a teacher, but I think it's better to think they are tools you use towards your goal. As you said before, it's your own responsibility to learn the language. Furthermore, if you want to use this kind of behaviorist management, you will need a teacher with applied behaviorist training. It's true as well that good teachers use unconsciously methods similar to this. I don't use English teachers, because I prefer spending money in my children. Edited by slucido on 28 November 2008 at 3:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 56 of 126 28 November 2008 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
You forget something important. Native mistakes, in writing or speaking, are usually produced because they are uneducated or illiterate. I am sure I write English better than most native speakers. On the other hand, everybody know that Scottish speak English very bad. :O) 1 person has voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
