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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5846 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes  Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 121 of 151 09 December 2009 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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Don't try to dodge the topic by bringing up my accent! :-)
(I have never claimed to sound completely native. Plus my rants against English were against its' role as lingua franca in Europe/EU... I don't dislike English per se, and I think it's perfect for the UK, the British Commonwealth and the USA.... ) Back to the "challenge": What we need is a somebody who sounds Swedish to G-man and myself... or somebody who sounds Russian to Oleg, Norwegian to Lizzern... Or perhaps somebody who is 100% certified German and can pass him or herself off as a Brit or American. (Sprachprofi maybe?) If such a person exists, it may well be on this forum, or at least somebody on the forum would know about them. So think hard! (I don't know of any...) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5917 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 122 of 151 09 December 2009 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | ||
I find your choice of words interesting:
Two comments: 1) It can take people up to several minutes of conversation to notice you're not a native speaker - hence you could pass for one - except you eventually slip up and say something that gives it away. 2) You said "most" British people can tell - by implication, that means not everybody notices, or at least not everybody points it out. I've been told by people who have no reason to try to make me feel good that I have "no accent" (i.e. I sound American), first they think it's charming, then after a while I start to get weird looks from them, again saying the same thing, that I sound totally American. Some people seem a little creeped out by it, to be honest. Endlessly amusing! I've also had people tell me "I cannot believe how American you sound". I do eventually slip up and say something that sounds a little off, usually because of influences from other accents of English though. But if I really wanted to clean up my act and sound entirely American all the time, I could. (Disclaimer: I am by no means perfect and would never claim to be, and I still make mistakes. No, that doesn't really bother me, at least not when it comes to English.) You could always disqualify me and say that people like me don't count, growing up in Norway I obviously had some degree of exposure to the language before the age of 12 and started learning it before that time. But there are plenty of people who report having long conversations with native speakers before the other person realizes they're not speaking to a native. Obviously most language learners are never going to put in the effort to make sure they get to a native accent. But it's just discouraging to say to people who are interested in achieving a native accent that it simply can't be done, when you have no proof to go on beyond "it seems like it'd be an awful lot of work" and "you don't really see people work on it hard enough to get there". As far as I'm concerned, as long as there are no purely physical reasons why a person can't produce the same sounds a native speaker would, I don't see that saying it's impossible is in any way justified. Obviously it's exceedingly rare, but that doesn't make it impossible! 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6130 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes 22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 123 of 151 09 December 2009 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | ||
Then certainly by that example you have indeed achieved native pronunciation! If you pass as a native speaker to a broad spectrum of native speakers, I would say you have it. Look forward to the video. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5917 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 124 of 151 09 December 2009 at 10:08pm | IP Logged | ||
This brings up a good point Cordelia - there's a difference between getting the accent right and getting all the grammar right, and using the appropriate register, and so on. You could realistically get the accent right while still making grammar mistakes. You could realistically get the grammar right while still having a distinctly foreign accent. But if your accent sounds native - I guess that's the point I'm arguing here, not the grammar. A non-native speaker CAN develop a native accent, and even if the rest isn't perfect, at least they sounds native accent-wise. Having a native accent doesn't imply perfection overall, just that you nailed one aspect of it, even if the rest needs work so that you don't give yourself away as an outsider. Some people seem to be saying it's impossible to get the accent spot on, and I just disagree. That is all. Edited by Lizzern on 09 December 2009 at 10:09pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5846 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 125 of 151 09 December 2009 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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Interesting comments by Liz and JW. You gave me something to think about.
I think it's slightly easier to sound natively American than natively British. The US is bigger, people seem to move around a lot and the accents are not quite as extreme as some UK accents. The US probably even has natively born people with slight accents... ------------ "Perfectionist grammar" is apparently a giveaway - i.e. being BETTER at some aspects of the grammar than native speakers. Or rather - not making the SAME grammar mistakes that most native speakers make... Regular usage of colloquialisms is another. You've got to use the right mix of local expressions and slang if you want to sound native. I am sure that a British teacher of English or somebody like Cainntear on this forum would be on to me almost immediately... London black-cab taxi drivers are good test subjects. They can be fun to speak with and the question is, how long until they say "so where are you from then luvv?" 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Oleg Triglot Groupie Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5837 days ago 57 posts - 95 votes Speaks: Russian*, Polish, English Studies: Spanish, French, Italian | Message 126 of 151 09 December 2009 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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I just want to clarify this: when I say about impossibility to sound native when speaking a foreing language, Im not talking about accents. What I mean is if you haven't grown up in, for example, an English-speaking country, then there are just too many things you don't know (cultural aspects related to the language) that you'll never learn; things that are learned only naturally.
On the subject of accent..can't say anything about it on the example of Russian, since there are no regional accents in Russia, only slight pronunciation differences between the North and the South. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6130 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes 22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 127 of 151 09 December 2009 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | ||
I disagree as well. I am in a networking group each week with a Norwegian who moved here at 18 and I guarantee there is no way anyone could tell he was not a native speaker. He has a perfect American accent. He is the leader of the networking group and I hear him speak for at least 15 minutes each week and I have never heard him say anything that betrayed his non-native status. Too bad I don't know him well enough to get him to make a video ;) However, I just know someone here is going to post a video that proves this point... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5846 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 128 of 151 09 December 2009 at 10:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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Interesting story about the Norwegian guy JW.. Ok, I believe you of course..
How old is he now though? And is it "cheating" if you move to the country in question and stay there for a long time? Liz is an interesting case in this respect because she has NEVER lived in an English speaking country and can make Americans believe she's one of them.. American culture is probably one of the easiest in the world to integrate into though - it's practically designed to be easy to learn. Particularly for people from the Western world.. If one tried to integrate into a country like... Italy, Russia... Germany, Sweden.. it'd be harder because popular cultures of these countries aren't spread outside their borders to the same degree... ) And like Oleg said, there's a ton of cultural stuff you wouldn't know about -- speech contains a lot of references to popular culture.. Edited by cordelia0507 on 09 December 2009 at 10:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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