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Well I guess Im learning Russian... | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| rafey Newbie United States Joined 5764 days ago 24 posts - 25 votes Speaks: English* | Message 89 of 248 09 March 2009 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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So that's what you were saying! I translated it differently. So now that we have SII looking in from the Russian Federation, maybe we can get some pointers on correct Russian but it's going to be awhile before I will be able to make constructive use of any grammatical advise. I don't really have a solid foundation yet.
You might take note of his use of the subjunctive in 'начали бы использовать меня...' That is to say ... 'WOULD start to use me...' Also in 'Я чувствовал бы себя несчастным...' it WOULD BE unfortunate for me ...' 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 Brian_N Pro Member Canada Joined 5769 days ago 200 posts - 202 votes  Studies: English*, Russian Personal Language Map | Message 90 of 248 09 March 2009 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Well your not a native English speaker SII and you were raised in a different culture, so I’ll break this down and explain this entire statement for you start to finish, the psychology behind it and the exact reasons for my particular word choices. There’s more to that statement than you know. We’ll start at the beginning with Rafey’s Invitation Grammar? Who needs grammar? Anyway, let me know when you are ready. My personal reaction to that statement is pretty much: No way, not happening. Why? Because I feel my Russian writing is so terrible that I’d be writing at level below that of a Russian child. By having to communicate at such a level it would make me feel very stupid, humiliated and probably even ashamed knowing that people who know proper Russian would be reading what I was writing and thinking to themselves “stupid American, he doesn’t even know how to spell the simplest of words.” I do not want to be put into such a situation, so I have to decline the offer within the context of the rules our culture teaches us. As I understand it, Russian to Russian communication is very direct, Russians say what they mean. Not so with North Americans. In replying to Rafey I do not to wish to directly refuse his offer because such a direct refusal, especially to an offer of something that could be quite beneficial to me as he has the greater knowledge of Russian could be seen as insulting. I can prevent that possibility of Rafey becoming insulted or annoyed with be by being straight forward and saying exactly what I feel and why I don’t want to practice Russian just yet. However that presents me with the following problems. -By being straight forward and saying at it is, it will effect me negatively because I’m essentially saying that my Russian is so terrible, its worse than a Russian child. And while yes that may be truth having to admit that to myself is another thing entirely. -Directly communicating such feelings (In North America) is usually reserved for very close friends and individuals in a relationship. To do so would be...inappropriate because it assumes close friendship when there is only acquaintance. -For North American males is it generally frowned upon to communicate such feelings because it is seen as being a feminine quality and if done to much it can cause you to have the label of ‘gay’ attached to you. (One of the bigger insults that you can use against a North American man, usually pretty devastating when used by an attractive woman.) So now that you have an idea of what I have to take into account with my response to Rafey’s offer lets look at both of our statements. Rafey - Grammar? Who needs grammar? Anyway, let me know when you are ready. Brian_N - Who needs grammar? I need grammar. I will not be happy when Russians begin to use me as a find and correct grammar exercise for their children. So using not wanting to directly refuse his offer and begin my response with a no or something as equally direct I use the construction of his question to model my response “Grammar, Who needs grammar? => Who needs grammar? I need grammar” I will not be happy when Russians begin to use me as a find and correct grammar exercise for their children. -by choosing to follow my initial response with this statement I communicate that to proceed would create an uncomfortable situation for me because of my poor Russian. (It was typed in Russian to highlight this fact without me having to say it) And in North America (uncomfortable) is a very acceptable reason for most refusals. It prevents the person who offered from being insulted and it also allows me to save face without having to explain my true feelings and it also prevents the possibility of an awkward situation being created for expressing my true feelings. (From assuming close friendship) Just some of many the unwritten rules we have in North America. Another one is that no one will tell you when your breaking certain rules, its your job to find them out yourself. (While everyone is talking and laughing at you behind your back of course lol.) But its okay to explain them to you because you’re not North American. As for your question "find and correct"?.. Is this means "finding and correcting mistakes in grammar exercises"? Yes that’s exactly what it means. The reason it would seem to be grammatically incorrect is because i’m making reference to what it would say on the actual assignment (or exercise) “Find and correct the following:”, hence “Find and Correct exercise” 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Brian_N Pro Member Canada Joined 5769 days ago 200 posts - 202 votes Studies: English*, Russian Personal Language Map | Message 91 of 248 09 March 2009 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
You don’t really have a ‘solid’ foundation yet? Atleast you have some foundation, mine is still on the draft table lol. If you don’t mind me asking what did you translate that little bit I wrote as? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Brian_N Pro Member Canada Joined 5769 days ago 200 posts - 202 votes Studies: English*, Russian Personal Language Map | Message 92 of 248 09 March 2009 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
*Quick Corrections* Thank you for (the) corrections. It is relatively easy for me to read English (especially technical manuals and specifications), but (I have) difficulty (translating) from Russian to English. All of the words are understandable, but not the last sentence as (a) whole. Or more exactly, "a find and correct grammar exercise" is not fully clear. "Grammar exercise" = "упражнение по грамматике" or "грамматическое упражнение", but "find and correct"?.. (Do you mean) "finding and correcting mistakes in grammar exercises"? Word-for-word translation of it is "Я не был бы счастлив, когда русские начали бы использовать меня как грамматическое упражнение для их детей". Formally this sentence is fully correct and understandable, but Russians don't speak like this. More correct is "Меня бы не обрадовало, если русские стали бы использовать меня как грамматическое упражнение для своих детей". If you want, I can check and correct your translations. It (presents) no difficulty for me. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| SII Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5796 days ago 184 posts - 194 votes Speaks: Russian* Studies: English | Message 93 of 248 09 March 2009 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Brian_N
Thank you for the detailed explanation and for the corrections.
Of course, not all Russians are "very direct". There are some rules relative to communication with the various persons etc. But most people are really prefer relatively direct communications: if you want say "yes" you must say "yes", "no" - "no" etc (but, of course, you must be polite in any case). rafey
In Russian in cases similar to this usually it is need to use past subjunctive, not future indicative. If in this case you will have said "Я буду несчастлив, когда русские начнут использовать меня...", the sentence will be correct and understandable, but it will not be "true" Russian. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| rafey Newbie United States Joined 5764 days ago 24 posts - 25 votes Speaks: English* | Message 94 of 248 09 March 2009 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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буду = will be. Yes. this is the problem attempting to learn 'out of context.' Since native speakers have a very different way of communicating a thought or idea. We can certainly benefit by a native speaker for advise on mor idomatic communication.
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| rafey Newbie United States Joined 5764 days ago 24 posts - 25 votes Speaks: English* | Message 95 of 248 09 March 2009 at 10:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I forgot to answer your question. I thought you had had said: Who needs grammar? I need grammar. It would be unfortuante to train Russian children in grammar. I didn't know what you meant, but it sounded good. Nopw I feel very stupid, humiliated and probably even ashamed. But ... who cares?
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| Brian_N Pro Member Canada Joined 5769 days ago 200 posts - 202 votes Studies: English*, Russian Personal Language Map | Message 96 of 248 10 March 2009 at 7:04am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Well I'm back at work now, joy joy...I so love twelve hour days, not. I'll probably be on for 12 days straight so I'll be quite busy. Though it shouldn't really have that much of an effect on my current pace of vocabulary expansion. Most of my efforts lately have been in 'consolidation' of the vocabulary i've already drilled. So by cutting that out and focusing soley on drilling of new words I should be able to maintain a ten words a day pace.
Other issues just came up closer to home...my families going stupid and fighting each other. Its so not pretty, though I guess it does keep the heat off me for learning Russian. Lol, yes I now its small but its the only silver lining I can find here. One thing remains clear though...I'm learning Russian and 12 hour workdays and family infighting will not be allowed to interfere with that. Come what may, I will not be deterred. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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