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 Language Learning Forum : Cultural Experiences in Foreign Languages (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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Jar-ptitsa
Triglot
Senior Member
Belgium
Joined 5898 days ago
980 posts - 1006 votes 
Speaks: French*, Dutch, German

 
 Message 25 of 60
02 May 2009 at 6:27pm | IP Logged 
portunhol wrote:
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
...Maybe it's because americans shame themslef of their country which
ignores all the world for example with weapons, envirnmental things, invades
countries, often seems without culture. I don 't say this are my opinions, but people say them about the
US...


No. That's not it at all. Immigrants, and their posterity, started retaining their ethnic identity long before the US
won the the Cold War. It's only been in the last generation, since the Cold War, that America has been so widely
demonized. Watching the news you'd think that it's the only country that has every used weapons, burned fossil
fuels or invaded another country.


The US *won* the Cold War? When or how was this? because the former USSR isn't more, or the Berlin Wall fell? I
think that nobody did "win" or "lose" the Cold War, but it changed.

Not the only country that usd weapons, but the only "western" country which has the death-penalty in 2009, and
where it's legal for all the people to have guns. This seems for the europeans very inhumane, violent and wrong.
Of course, Iraq was damaging for the image, but everyone knows Obama's not Bush and maybe therefore so
many people were happy that Obama replaced Bush (I mean it was an important reason).

Quote:

I think we're on the right track with there being no ethnic American identity (within the US), and I also think that
the comparison between the Welsh and the Americans is exactly right. Despite being very Anglicized most of
them are very proud to call themselves Welsh. I also think that people have an very real need to feel special. By
saying you're Irish-American, African-American, Native-American, etc. you're saying that you're not like
everyone else. You're special.


It depend of how much into the past the ethny is created. Physical characteristics are visually evident, but
German, dutch, american, british there's minimal visually different. Also, if a black person live all her /his live in
Belgium and says that he / she's Belgian, I find this true: the person hasn't to say that he's african-belgian or
other thing when he wasn't in Africa much or at all and feels that Belgium is his/her home.

the comparison Welsh / Americans is NOT right at all but completely wrong. the Welsh people are born in Wales,
live in wales, are educated in Wales, know the Welsh live, customs, traditions, etc.... That many are anglophones
doesn't mean that they're lesser welsh that the Welsh-speakers of Wales: both this languages are official in
Wales. Scotland as well, the majority of Scottish are anglophone, (or speak Scots - dialect/language similar with
english). Few of Scottish speak Gaelic, only some people in the west, on some islands. MANY of countries have
two or more official languages, this doesn't means that the speakers of one of those are lesser of the country
and parallel with americans who say "I'm Italian" but never were in Italy and monolingual anglophones. In Italy,
English is NOT an official language. You concentrated too muhc on the language: this is only one part, and then
it's relevant that in Wales, English is a native and official language (with Welsh). Wales is part of Great britain,
and those people are all british, like the English as well. The anglophone welsh aren't Anglicized, they're british
and speak one of te official languages of Wales. The americans have a stupid idea of the celtic countries, for
example they have ridiculous tattoos in welsh/scottish gaelic and think that all the true Welsh and Scottish are
native-speakers of those languages, which is wrong.

I think that the US is different because the true amercians are small groups, poor, haven't power or the dominant
culture (the people who lived there before the Europeans arrived). In Wales, like other European countries this
isn't the case, although migration occurred during all of history.

It doesn't matter: nationality, ethny, etc are categories of the modern world for the politic, control, tribal feeling,
prejudice, feel better, superior, etc For me, it's not important from where come a person, but the different
cultures exist, and the amercian one is different that all the ones in Europe (which have big differences also,
especially east/west or north/south ) therefore when an amercian says 'I'm Italian" but refers the ancestors, the
person is wrong becasue they aren't from the italain culture. For the people who travelled during the childhood
it's complicated, and anyway it's possible to be of two or more cultures I think IF YOU LIVED IN THOSE
COUNTRIES AND SPEAK ONE OF THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE.

Edited by Jar-ptitsa on 02 May 2009 at 6:29pm
2 persons have voted this message useful



Recht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5801 days ago
241 posts - 270 votes 
Speaks: English*, GermanB1

 
 Message 26 of 60
02 May 2009 at 6:48pm | IP Logged 
Jar-ptitsa wrote:

where it's legal for all the people to have guns. This seems for the europeans very
inhumane, violent and wrong.

The people having guns is a lot more preferable than only the government having guns.
We aren't powerless if the government attacks us. Unarmed people are.

Jar-ptitsa wrote:
   therefore when an amercian says 'I'm Italian" but refers the
ancestors, the
person is wrong becasue they aren't from the italain culture.

as I said, they aren't claiming to be an Italian national or completely culturally in
common with Italians. They're just claiming Italian ethnicity.
1 person has voted this message useful



Jar-ptitsa
Triglot
Senior Member
Belgium
Joined 5898 days ago
980 posts - 1006 votes 
Speaks: French*, Dutch, German

 
 Message 27 of 60
02 May 2009 at 7:06pm | IP Logged 
Recht wrote:
Jar-ptitsa wrote:

where it's legal for all the people to have guns. This seems for the europeans very
inhumane, violent and wrong.

The people having guns is a lot more preferable than only the government having guns.
We aren't powerless if the government attacks us. Unarmed people are.


What a stupid excuse. if the government attacks, with sophisctaed missiles, or other things by the military, your
gun in your kitchen cupboard's not helpful. the people with the guns attack innocent people, not defend
themself of the government's attack. If this is the reason, all the amercians better have a nuclear bomb factory
in the house.

Quote:
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
   therefore when an amercian says 'I'm Italian" but refers the
ancestors, the
person is wrong becasue they aren't from the italain culture.

as I said, they aren't claiming to be an Italian national or completely culturally in
common with Italians. They're just claiming Italian ethnicity.


Then they have to say 'I'm amercian and ethnic Italian".

Edited by Jar-ptitsa on 02 May 2009 at 7:07pm
2 persons have voted this message useful



Juan M.
Senior Member
Colombia
Joined 5899 days ago
460 posts - 597 votes 

 
 Message 28 of 60
02 May 2009 at 7:26pm | IP Logged 
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
...Maybe it's because americans shame themslef of their country which
ignores all the world for example with weapons, envirnmental things, invades
countries, often seems without culture. I don 't say this are my opinions, but people say them about the
US...

Not the only country that usd weapons, but the only "western" country which has the death-penalty in 2009, and
where it's legal for all the people to have guns. This seems for the europeans very inhumane, violent and wrong.
Of course, Iraq was damaging for the image...


It only seems that way to Europeans because your governments and elites are much more discreet when sponsoring atrocities -a refinement resulting from long experience- and better at confusing and hiding the true nature of their policies.

Edited by JuanM on 02 May 2009 at 7:31pm
1 person has voted this message useful



jbbar
Senior Member
Belgium
Joined 5800 days ago
192 posts - 210 votes 
Speaks: English

 
 Message 29 of 60
02 May 2009 at 7:45pm | IP Logged 
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
portunhol wrote:
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
...Maybe it's because americans shame themslef of their country which
ignores all the world for example with weapons, envirnmental things, invades
countries, often seems without culture. I don 't say this are my opinions, but people say them about the
US...


No. That's not it at all. Immigrants, and their posterity, started retaining their ethnic identity long before the US
won the the Cold War. It's only been in the last generation, since the Cold War, that America has been so widely
demonized. Watching the news you'd think that it's the only country that has every used weapons, burned fossil
fuels or invaded another country.


The US *won* the Cold War? When or how was this? because the former USSR isn't more, or the Berlin Wall fell? I
think that nobody did "win" or "lose" the Cold War, but it changed.

Not the only country that usd weapons, but the only "western" country which has the death-penalty in 2009, and
where it's legal for all the people to have guns. This seems for the europeans very inhumane, violent and wrong.
Of course, Iraq was damaging for the image, but everyone knows Obama's not Bush and maybe therefore so
many people were happy that Obama replaced Bush (I mean it was an important reason).


Why is it necessary to bring in politics in this topic? I am an "European" citizen and I disagree with your pro-gun control views. I also don't find the USA backward just because it has the death penalty. I find it quite ridiculous that law-abiding citizens in a free country should be banned or controlled if they possess a firearm, but top criminals get the best lawyers to defend them. In good old Europe it's [de facto] a crime to defend your family and property and child molesters don't have to fear execution, they can even access child porn from jail these days if they want. Prison guards can't use force to make the vilest gangsters comply but top criminals of which half could have been sent back to their country of origin, or would be on death row if they were in America, can freely beat the crap out of the guards. The government is supposed to be in the business of safe-guarding the rights and liberties of its citizens. When the government chooses to disregard the right of law-abiding people and forsakes justice, then the people have the right to defend themselves. You can't realistically rely on government to keep you safe anyway, unless you want to live in an Orwellian world. Mercy for the guilty is cruelty to the innocent, as Adam Smith said.

Returning to the original topic, I consider myself Flemish and a Westerner. I don't believe there is such a thing as "the" European - I feel just as close to Australians as to Lithuanians (just by way of example). I don't think continentally but more in terms of similar ethnicity or shared background. To be more precise, I don't feel a bond with Europe but I do feel a bond with Western civilization, which is European in origin but goes beyond Europe. So to me, an Australian or an American can basically be just as close as a person from Portugal or Belarus.

jbbar

Edited by jbbar on 02 May 2009 at 7:57pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Recht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5801 days ago
241 posts - 270 votes 
Speaks: English*, GermanB1

 
 Message 30 of 60
02 May 2009 at 8:11pm | IP Logged 
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
Recht wrote:
Jar-ptitsa wrote:

where it's legal for all the people to have guns. This seems for the europeans very
inhumane, violent and wrong.

The people having guns is a lot more preferable than only the government having guns.
We aren't powerless if the government attacks us. Unarmed people are.


What a stupid excuse. if the government attacks, with sophisctaed missiles, or other
things by the military, your
gun in your kitchen cupboard's not helpful. the people with the guns attack innocent
people, not defend
themself of the government's attack. If this is the reason, all the amercians better
have a nuclear bomb factory
in the house.


superior force has been defeated numerous times in history by small bands of people
with small arms. There are numerous examples in history of small bands of people
successfully defending themselves. Furthermore, many people defend themselves from
robbers with guns. If someone is attacking you, calling the police won't help.

Quote:
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
   therefore when an amercian says 'I'm Italian" but refers
the
ancestors, the
person is wrong becasue they aren't from the italain culture.

as I said, they aren't claiming to be an Italian national or completely culturally in
common with Italians. They're just claiming Italian ethnicity.


Then they have to say 'I'm amercian and ethnic Italian". [/QUOTE]

no they don't. Everyone knows they're American citizens already. That's like walking
up to people and always announcing "I'm a human being". It's not worth stating.
1 person has voted this message useful



Recht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5801 days ago
241 posts - 270 votes 
Speaks: English*, GermanB1

 
 Message 31 of 60
02 May 2009 at 8:17pm | IP Logged 
jbbar wrote:
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
portunhol wrote:
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
...Maybe it's
because americans shame themslef of their country which
ignores all the world for example with weapons, envirnmental things, invades
countries, often seems without culture. I don 't say this are my opinions, but people
say them about the
US...


No. That's not it at all. Immigrants, and their posterity, started retaining their
ethnic identity long before the US
won the the Cold War. It's only been in the last generation, since the Cold War, that
America has been so widely
demonized. Watching the news you'd think that it's the only country that has every
used weapons, burned fossil
fuels or invaded another country.


The US *won* the Cold War? When or how was this? because the former USSR isn't more,
or the Berlin Wall fell? I
think that nobody did "win" or "lose" the Cold War, but it changed.

Not the only country that usd weapons, but the only "western" country which has the
death-penalty in 2009, and
where it's legal for all the people to have guns. This seems for the europeans very
inhumane, violent and wrong.
Of course, Iraq was damaging for the image, but everyone knows Obama's not Bush and
maybe therefore so
many people were happy that Obama replaced Bush (I mean it was an important reason).


Why is it necessary to bring in politics in this topic? I am an "European" citizen and
I disagree with your pro-gun control views...........................ETC

jbbar


Those are some very unpopular views that you hold, I'm guessing. Correct? Pretty
impressive I must say!



1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7156 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 32 of 60
02 May 2009 at 8:32pm | IP Logged 
Why in the hell is this thread degenerating into a session for bashing America? As Volte first said, the views on nationality or identity are different outside Europe.

Pauline / Jar-ptitsa, live outside Europe for a bit or at least open your eyes. The mechanistic approach of assigning nationality based on birthplace or competency in the "national language" does not hold up very well. For example, Franz von Suppe was a composer who was born and grew up in Dalmatia (what is now Croatia) to a family of what is considered to be Belgian extraction, and spent most of his adult life in Vienna composing and interacting only in German. What do you consider him to be? Belgian? Croatian? Dalmatian? Austrian? It doesn't admit a cut-and-dried answer as your approach dictates.

When you live in a country or region whose current population comprises a lot of recent immigrants, it's foolish/impractical to think that these recent immigrants will automatically feel at home with the history or culture of the new nation. In the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, it's common for people who have been in these lands for up to 2 or 3 generations to say that their national identity is still that of the ancestral homeland rather than "American", "Canadian", "Australian" or "New Zealander". It's not wrong and it only shows that they're conscious about their past and not quite able to drop all of the old affiliations regardless of whether they can speak the ancestors' language or not.


1 person has voted this message useful



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