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Ukrainian vs Russian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| canada38 Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5493 days ago 304 posts - 417 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish, French Studies: Portuguese, Japanese | Message 25 of 44 29 April 2010 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
This might sound trivial, but I think it is a subtle fact worthy of consideration. Here we all should know that a dialect is an equally valid variant of a language, and I would hope that none of us have the popular opinion that a dialect is a substandard version of a more prestigious language. Of course one dialect may be more prestigious economically, but that does not imply that it is 'more correct' in purely linguistic terms. Excluding specific situations, but rather in the overall picture, Russian is clearly more useful than Ukrainian, and by the same reasoning, American English is of greater use than Canadian or Australian English. For example, an ESL student planning to study in a yet to be determined English speaking country, would be wise to learn American spellings over Canadian variants. Likewise, if one was going to be in Eastern Europe in an undetermined location, and could only learn one language, Russian would the safer bet over Ukrainian. My point is this: dialects work in both directions, regardless of the colloquial usage of the term. If someone wishes to classify Ukrainian as a dialect of Russian, he should also be prepared to classify Russian as a dialect of Ukrainian, since a dialect is a variant of the same language, and not a term denoting a variant with substandard status. Although I haven't studied either, from what I've read they appear to me to be indeed separate languages. Edited by canada38 on 29 April 2010 at 2:39pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Delodephius Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member Yugoslavia Joined 5401 days ago 342 posts - 501 votes Speaks: Slovak*, Serbo-Croatian*, EnglishC1, Czech Studies: Russian, Japanese | Message 26 of 44 29 April 2010 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Not with English because there aren't certain chauvinistic implications present there. When a Greek refuses in English to call the language Macedonian we all know this is because of chauvinistic reasons and no respect for the Macedonians' self designation. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| 1qaz2wsx Diglot Groupie Greece Joined 5371 days ago 98 posts - 124 votes Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Albanian | Message 27 of 44 29 April 2010 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Language or dialect can be a political question,not a linguistic one.Someone might claim that Ukrainian is a separate language from Russian,even though Ukrainian is linguistically very close to Russian just because of politics.The name 'Macedonian' is often used just to show that the language is a direct descendant of ancient Macedonian with which it has nothing to do.Ancient Macedonian (an unknown language) has nothing to do with modern Macedonian,which is a slavic language,while Bulgarian and modern day Macedonian could be considered dialects of one and the same language.Their mutual intelligibity is very high.But because of politics modern Macedonian is considered a separate language. The same goes for Ukrainian and Russian.Linguistically they are very close and could be considered dialects or variants of the same language.But some people consider them separate languages just because of politics.And this list is very long:Serbian and Croatian(almost identical but they are considered different languages),Romanian an Moldovan and so on... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| 1qaz2wsx Diglot Groupie Greece Joined 5371 days ago 98 posts - 124 votes Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Albanian | Message 28 of 44 29 April 2010 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
What about the part of the greek people who call themselves Macedonian in a regional sense?Should they be denied of their self designation just because a neighbouring country uses the same name? Edited by 1qaz2wsx on 29 April 2010 at 5:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Delodephius Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member Yugoslavia Joined 5401 days ago 342 posts - 501 votes Speaks: Slovak*, Serbo-Croatian*, EnglishC1, Czech Studies: Russian, Japanese | Message 29 of 44 29 April 2010 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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They are Macedonians in a regional sense, but they are first and foremost Greeks. Ethnic Macedonians are simply Macedonians and nothing else. They have no other entity to identify with, unlike the Macedonian Greeks which have Greece and other Greeks to identify with. The Macedonians cannot identify for example with an illusionary identity like Slavs. They identify ONLY with Macedonia and nothing else, thus they are the ethnic Macedonians and their language Macedonian. The language of the Greeks in Macedonia is a dialect of Greek and not of a language called Macedonian. Therefore the Greeks in Macedonia can call their language Macedonian as long as it is understood they are speaking of a dialect of the language called Greek, and they can call themselves Macedonians as long as it is understood they mean in the regional sense and as long it is understood they are Greeks.
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| 1qaz2wsx Diglot Groupie Greece Joined 5371 days ago 98 posts - 124 votes Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Albanian | Message 30 of 44 29 April 2010 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Illusionary slav identity or not,their language is slavic and could be considered a dialect of Bulgarian.Have you ever heard of a macedonian salad?A lot of people use the term 'macedonian' to designate themselves or their language,in the regional or the ethnic sense.The Greeks consider the ancient Macedonians one of their ancestors and there is a variant of the modern greek language called macedonian.The people of 'the repuplic of Macedonia' consider the ancient Macedonians their ancestors.The Aromanians who live in the republic of Macedonia consider themselves descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians,too.The Romanians consider the aromanians are southern romanians and the colloquial term for calling them is 'machedoni' or macedo-romanians in English.What this newly formed state of the 'republic of Macedonia' wants is to appropriate the term 'macedonian' for its self.Thus anything macedonian,whether ancient,modern,regional or ethnic must be connected to this recently emerged nation of the so called 'Macedonians'.A new nation to stand on its feet needs,of course,glorious history and heroic ancestors.The problem here is that this nation claims this term, 'macedonian' for its self only, denying all others of the use of this term. Bottom line,the question 'language or dialect' is political and the use of the name 'Macedonian' for this language and country is very political. Edited by 1qaz2wsx on 29 April 2010 at 5:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Fazla Hexaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6260 days ago 166 posts - 255 votes Speaks: Italian, Serbo-Croatian*, English, Russian, Portuguese, French Studies: Arabic (classical), German, Turkish, Mandarin | Message 31 of 44 29 April 2010 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I don't understand how can it be political if the whole Macedonian nation (thus, I'm not referring to the ones that use that name in a regional sense) uses that term. What you said would make sense if there was a party that pushed for that name, while the people was claiming that they speak a dialect of Bulgarian but no, every single Macedonian says he speaks Macedonian so it's not political at all.
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| RedKing'sDream Diglot Groupie United States Joined 5797 days ago 53 posts - 68 votes Speaks: English*, Russian Studies: Ukrainian | Message 32 of 44 29 April 2010 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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It's not a political distinction.
Thousands of words are different. One of thousands of examples: (Russ) "Мы увидемся на следующей неделе." vs. (Ukr)"Ми побачимося наступного тиждня." (We'll see each other next week.) Granted, there are many things that are extremely simple. But the differences, especially in the lexicon at the more formal level are very deep. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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