reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6448 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German
| Message 41 of 47 03 July 2009 at 4:08pm | IP Logged |
Maybe someone can also invent a book where two texts are arranged in parallel manner. Or a book containing an alphabetical list of words, with information given for each word.
As I have mentioned earlier you may also try smoking a very large book or a series of books. Obviously, you need to read every page and only then roll it up and smoke it. You may actually turn into a new literary sensation a la Joseph Conrad. Potential side effects (i.e. lung cancer etc.) may be mitigated with the right choice of tobacco.
I believe it is also necessary to include a warning here that you should first consult your physician about the negative side effects of prolonged smoking/inhaling of such substances. In fact, the prolonged consumption of literature and other cultural products may also need a closer look from competent authorities.
Edited by reineke on 03 July 2009 at 5:51pm
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Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese
| Message 42 of 47 03 July 2009 at 4:36pm | IP Logged |
Cainntear wrote:
Volte already gave a perfect example of how this is harmful and permanent. He first learned German from reading it with an "English" eye. Because in his native English a final, unstressed -ER is just a schwa, as is a final unstressed vowel. His brain has put German words ending -ER and -E into the same box.
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You have it backwards, actually. I pronounced -er as if it were a clear English "er", while it's actually reduced into a very specific vowel in German - neither an e nor an a, but sounding somewhat similar to both (I believe the closest IPA symbol is ɞ, although the material I'm using uses a slightly different symbol, which isn't on Wikipedia's IPA charts).
My brain had words ending in -e and -er in very different boxes, for reading, writing, and speaking (although I was saying them wrong). Only in listening was I consistently hearing -e, regardless of which was said.
I severely doubt it's permanent - I've learned to distinguish the sounds, although only a large majority of the time. It took some hours of work after I realized it was a problem. Damaging, sure; painful to eradicate, certainly (this is probably a major reason I have the genders of so many German nouns wrong - simply learning to hear it correctly from now on doesn't retroactively fix that), but I have my doubts about permanent.
Cainntear wrote:
Now imagine someone from the south of England tried learning Spanish from a page without ever hearing it or reading about the phonetics.
The word "hablar" would start with an English aspirant "H", the stress would move to the first syllable and the last syllable would be reduced to a weak vowel, no R sound at all; in fact, he would pronounce it the same way as "hablo", "habla" and "hable", too, which would be a massive barrier to comprehension.
A native English speaker would have no idea what the accent marks mean either, so "jamón", which looks clear to you, may well still get stressed on the first syllable, it would definitely pick up an English J, and the ó would probably end up diphthongised.
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That sounds quite a lot like my Spanish pronunciation a couple of years ago (I'd never studied the language, but had read a bit in it).
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Hashimi Senior Member Oman Joined 6260 days ago 362 posts - 529 votes Speaks: Arabic (Written)* Studies: English, Japanese
| Message 43 of 47 03 July 2009 at 5:43pm | IP Logged |
Volte wrote:
I also would consider using it from the beginning for a dead language. |
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I understand everything you said in this thread except this.
How can you use this method with a dead language?
Are there DVDs in dead languages? Can I watch The Mummy Returns for example dubbed in ancient Egyptian?
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Alkeides Senior Member Bhutan Joined 6149 days ago 636 posts - 644 votes
| Message 44 of 47 03 July 2009 at 5:46pm | IP Logged |
Hashimi wrote:
Volte wrote:
I also would consider using it from the beginning for a dead language. |
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I understand everything you said in this thread except this.
How can you use this method with a dead language?
Are there DVDs in dead languages? Can I watch The Mummy Returns for example dubbed in ancient Egyptian?
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She means listening to Italian while reading Latin for example. Isn't that the basis for your method? Listening to the audio in a language you know while reading the foreign language? In that case you should be READING Ancient Egyptian, although given the nature of the writing system it's probably only possible for Coptic.
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slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6676 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English
| Message 45 of 47 03 July 2009 at 10:40pm | IP Logged |
Cainntear wrote:
slucido wrote:
Sorry, but I don't buy all that "harmful method and permanent damage" crap. |
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Then you're not paying enough attention.
Volte already gave a perfect example of how this is harmful and permanent. She first learned German from reading it with an "English" eye. Because in her native English a final, unstressed -ER is just a schwa, as is a final unstressed vowel. Her brain has put German words ending -ER and -E into the same box.
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This doesn't prove anything. You can fix it.
If you want to learn a language as an adult, the only "permanent damage" is caused by your native language.
Hashimi, do whatever you want in your target language as long as you interact with it and keeps you motivated.
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icing_death Senior Member United States Joined 5862 days ago 296 posts - 302 votes Speaks: English*
| Message 46 of 47 04 July 2009 at 4:59am | IP Logged |
Although there are some things I like about this technique, I'm primarily after verbal communication, so I don't
prefer it. If one isn't interested in conversation, I suppose this isn't bad. Kudos for coming up with something new.
As for bad pronunciation becoming fossilized, I think that takes a long time. Fossils are pretty old.
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Hashimi Senior Member Oman Joined 6260 days ago 362 posts - 529 votes Speaks: Arabic (Written)* Studies: English, Japanese
| Message 47 of 47 04 July 2009 at 11:45am | IP Logged |
Alkeides wrote:
She means listening to Italian while reading Latin for example. Isn't that the basis for your method? Listening to the audio in a language you know while reading the foreign language? In that case you should be READING Ancient Egyptian, although given the nature of the writing system it's probably only possible for Coptic. |
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I understand that, (in that post I meant subbed not dubbed), but are there many subtitles in dead languages?
It maybe used for books only, something like listening to an English or Italian audiobook of the Bible and reading the Latin translation or the Koine Greek original book.
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