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The 1-year challenge: Italian

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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
244 messages over 31 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 14 ... 30 31 Next >>
Lingua
Decaglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5568 days ago
186 posts - 319 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch

 
 Message 105 of 244
02 September 2009 at 1:10am | IP Logged 
Lizzern wrote:
I'm one of the few people here who makes the distinction between fluent and 'fluid' (for want of a better word) where I would use the former for a strong command of a language in every aspect and the latter for ease and naturalness of expression (without necessarily being grammatically flawless).
Liz


In professional discussions of language learning a distinction is made between fluency and accuracy. Fluency refers to the ability to speak easily and without hesitancy. Accuracy refers to the ability to produce language that is correct. Combining the two gives you proficiency.

Edited by Lingua on 02 September 2009 at 1:13am
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ellasevia
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2011
Senior Member
Germany
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2150 posts - 3229 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian
Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian

 
 Message 106 of 244
02 September 2009 at 2:02am | IP Logged 
Lingua wrote:
Lizzern wrote:
I'm one of the few people here who makes the distinction between fluent and 'fluid' (for want of a better word) where I would use the former for a strong command of a language in every aspect and the latter for ease and naturalness of expression (without necessarily being grammatically flawless).
Liz


In professional discussions of language learning a distinction is made between fluency and accuracy. Fluency refers to the ability to speak easily and without hesitancy. Accuracy refers to the ability to produce language that is correct. Combining the two gives you proficiency.


Hm... Very interesting. There should be some sort of distinction between those made on this site. I'm definitely "proficient" in English and Spanish, almost to "proficient" (currently a bit past "accurate") in French and Portuguese, and my Greek and Italian are around, perhaps a bit below "accurate." I would interpret just "accurate" as intermediate level or basic fluency, and "proficiency" as advanced (or beyond) fluency... That's assuming that it goes in the order of accuracy, [fluency,] proficiency. But would the fluency even be included at all? Because to my understanding, proficiency is just with fluency added to accuracy.
1 person has voted this message useful



Lingua
Decaglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5568 days ago
186 posts - 319 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch

 
 Message 107 of 244
02 September 2009 at 2:36am | IP Logged 
ellasevia wrote:
Lingua wrote:
Lizzern wrote:
I'm one of the few people here who makes the distinction between fluent and 'fluid' (for want of a better word) where I would use the former for a strong command of a language in every aspect and the latter for ease and naturalness of expression (without necessarily being grammatically flawless).
Liz


In professional discussions of language learning a distinction is made between fluency and accuracy. Fluency refers to the ability to speak easily and without hesitancy. Accuracy refers to the ability to produce language that is correct. Combining the two gives you proficiency.


Hm... Very interesting. There should be some sort of distinction between those made on this site. I'm definitely "proficient" in English and Spanish, almost to "proficient" (currently a bit past "accurate") in French and Portuguese, and my Greek and Italian are around, perhaps a bit below "accurate." I would interpret just "accurate" as intermediate level or basic fluency, and "proficiency" as advanced (or beyond) fluency... That's assuming that it goes in the order of accuracy, [fluency,] proficiency. But would the fluency even be included at all? Because to my understanding, proficiency is just with fluency added to accuracy.


Fluency and accuracy can develop in tandem. They are different aspects, not different stages. Low fluency and low accuracy would be low proficiency. High fluency and high accuracy would be high proficiency. Medium fluency with low accuracy could be called medium low proficiency.


Edited by Lingua on 02 September 2009 at 2:38am
2 persons have voted this message useful



ellasevia
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2011
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 6134 days ago
2150 posts - 3229 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian
Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian

 
 Message 108 of 244
02 September 2009 at 2:42am | IP Logged 
Lingua wrote:
ellasevia wrote:
Lingua wrote:
Lizzern wrote:
I'm one of the few people here who makes the distinction between fluent and 'fluid' (for want of a better word) where I would use the former for a strong command of a language in every aspect and the latter for ease and naturalness of expression (without necessarily being grammatically flawless).
Liz


In professional discussions of language learning a distinction is made between fluency and accuracy. Fluency refers to the ability to speak easily and without hesitancy. Accuracy refers to the ability to produce language that is correct. Combining the two gives you proficiency.


Hm... Very interesting. There should be some sort of distinction between those made on this site. I'm definitely "proficient" in English and Spanish, almost to "proficient" (currently a bit past "accurate") in French and Portuguese, and my Greek and Italian are around, perhaps a bit below "accurate." I would interpret just "accurate" as intermediate level or basic fluency, and "proficiency" as advanced (or beyond) fluency... That's assuming that it goes in the order of accuracy, [fluency,] proficiency. But would the fluency even be included at all? Because to my understanding, proficiency is just with fluency added to accuracy.


Fluency and accuracy can develop in tandem. They are different aspects, not different stages. Low fluency and low accuracy would be low proficiency. High fluency and high accuracy would be high proficiency. Medium fluency with low accuracy could be called medium low proficiency.


Ohhh, that makes more sense, I suppose. Yes, they both do develop simultaneously, but fluency seems to show itself later on, at least for me. I can form coherent sentences and produce Italian and Greek correctly for the most part, but I definitely do not speak "fluently". Probably lack of conversational practice. I was this way for French until I started taking it at school and because of "true" exposure and practice to it everyday I am now fairly fluent in it.

Edited by ellasevia on 02 September 2009 at 2:43am
1 person has voted this message useful



Lizzern
Diglot
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 5901 days ago
791 posts - 1053 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, English
Studies: Japanese

 
 Message 109 of 244
02 September 2009 at 2:00pm | IP Logged 
Interesting, Lingua. That is a very useful distinction, and one I wish would be made across the board. I suppose the confusion or disagreements come about because the professional definitions aren't the same as what some of us regular mortals might associate with these terms. Outside of this board I have only once heard someone refer to themselves (or somebody else for that matter) as fluent without actually meaning proficiency. So to those of us who have always considered fluency to be a high degree of proficiency (i.e. native or close), it sounds very odd and a little arrogant when people who merely have a good fluidity of speech and a basic grasp of grammar and vocabulary refer to themselves as fluent, because a considerable degree of accuracy is so strongly implied in our definition of fluency that you simply don't fit the definition just from ease of speech alone. I don't think we could ever get to the point where everyone uses the same terms consistently, so I think we're probably stuck with not really knowing what people mean when they call themselves fluent. Unless it's elaborated upon further by the person claiming fluency, I can't quite take it seriously anymore, knowing the range of different things that could be meant by it.

Liz

Edited by Lizzern on 02 September 2009 at 2:09pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Lingua
Decaglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5568 days ago
186 posts - 319 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch

 
 Message 110 of 244
02 September 2009 at 11:36pm | IP Logged 
Lizzern wrote:
Interesting, Lingua. That is a very useful distinction, and one I wish would be made across the board. I suppose the confusion or disagreements come about because the professional definitions aren't the same as what some of us regular mortals might associate with these terms. Outside of this board I have only once heard someone refer to themselves (or somebody else for that matter) as fluent without actually meaning proficiency. So to those of us who have always considered fluency to be a high degree of proficiency (i.e. native or close), it sounds very odd and a little arrogant when people who merely have a good fluidity of speech and a basic grasp of grammar and vocabulary refer to themselves as fluent, because a considerable degree of accuracy is so strongly implied in our definition of fluency that you simply don't fit the definition just from ease of speech alone. I don't think we could ever get to the point where everyone uses the same terms consistently, so I think we're probably stuck with not really knowing what people mean when they call themselves fluent. Unless it's elaborated upon further by the person claiming fluency, I can't quite take it seriously anymore, knowing the range of different things that could be meant by it.

Liz


I agree with everything you say here.


1 person has voted this message useful



Lizzern
Diglot
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 5901 days ago
791 posts - 1053 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, English
Studies: Japanese

 
 Message 111 of 244
03 September 2009 at 10:52am | IP Logged 
So I'm about 2 days behind (ish) with the two texts I've already started, just not feeling too great these days and I left them until too late in the day both yesterday and the day before. That's fine though, I'll just carry on with them without trying to catch up or anything, since it seems like it doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing if I take a day or two longer than planned. I finished the first translation for one of the texts yesterday, but that and some random reading is pretty much all I got done - I think I might be coming down with something (again) so I'm not all that productive these days. But I'll probably have time to do what I'm supposed to do sometime today, though I have quite a lot of other things that I need to do that I should prioritize. I might start another text today, I'm still not sure how much time I really have.

On a random note, I should really, really not listen to anything in napoletano ever again. Cuteness!

Liz

Edited by Lizzern on 03 September 2009 at 10:53am
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ExtraLean
Triglot
Senior Member
France
languagelearners.myf
Joined 5986 days ago
897 posts - 880 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish
Studies: German

 
 Message 112 of 244
03 September 2009 at 11:01am | IP Logged 
Wow, I stop reading for a couple of days and look at what I missed!

Lingua, thanks for that little tidbit on Fluency, Accuracy and Proficiency, it melds well with what I think.

Lizzern, well I'm chatting with you so I don't have much else to say, but do keep up the good work anyway.

Thom.


1 person has voted this message useful



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