Do you keep track of hours? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Do you keep track of hours?
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

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jeff_lindqvist
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Message 9 of 16

21 August 2009 at 6:01pm | IP Logged

I count hours to keep track of what I do, for how long, and in which language. If I after some time feel that my level hasn't changed, I can turn to my chart.

"Oh, no wonder I still can't understand movies - I only read!"
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numerodix
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Message 10 of 16

21 August 2009 at 7:07pm | IP Logged

Lizzern wrote:

I'm not known for my tendency to start talking straight away, so maybe someone else can give you some input on that, I like to focus on input and study for a while until I can at least feel like I don't sound like a toddler. Anyway, I like to use music and related interviews to test myself, with any language one of the first things I do is find music I like, that I want to understand but stuff I'd listen to even if I couldn't. Helps keep the motivation going. Then I'll find interviews with my favourite singers and see if I can understand any of it. At first I obviously can't understand much, but I like to start studying with a good course like Assimil straight away and then just keep on listening to things I like while I study. If you do this eventually you'll catch yourself understanding a whole sentence, or whatever, and it'll feel like a small victory, a silly one but nevertheless. If you keep studying you'll experience this more and more until you surprise yourself by being able to follow a long discussion practically without realizing that it's in a language you wouldn't expect yourself to understand.

I found some interviews within the first couple of weeks of learning Italian that I really wanted to understand, but couldn't, so I bookmarked them and didn't think about them again for a while, then a month or two later I watched one of them again and found I could understand many things without too much difficulty, and now I can understand anywhere above 95% of them without thinking about it at all. (I've been studying for less than 4 months.) The same goes for some song lyrics that had me stumped for a while (and weren't available online), with one song I didn't listen to that often I literally suddenly understood the whole first verse when the previous time I had understood only bits and pieces of it.

I have another video lined up, one that at this point is just too difficult for me, partly because of audio quality, but essentially because of vocabulary. I tried watching it a while back when I was still just a newbie at Italian (actually I'm still just a newbie at Italian, but more so then) and could understand practically nothing. After a month or two away from it I can now understand maybe 50% naturally, but the rest of it is just lost on me. It's still something I can use as a sort of measure of my own learning, because I'll know I've made some real progress when I'm able to understand all of it. I'm hoping it will be soon.

I would say find possible benchmarks that are just fun and that interest you, so you want to understand them. Can be music or related things, it can be comedy, it can be computer manuals if you're into that sort of thing, it doesn't matter. If it's music you can just enjoy it even if you don't know all the words, and if you find a good course (Assimil's courses are a great way to start, imo) and just study, trying to enjoy it and not letting yourself be frustrated, then you'll begin to see progress very soon. Personally I am dependent on enjoyable input to learn anything, I'd have immense difficulty just burying my head in a book - I likely wouldn't learn anything, so I'd say get lots and lots (and LOTS) of input that you like and find some enjoyable way of studying alongside.

If you're eager for a counting system there's various ways people here measure their vocabulary, you can find some threads on it if you search a bit. I use a system based on the texts I study, it's in my learning log but if you're frustrated you probably wouldn't want to go the text route like that, but there's ways you can do it, if you feel like you need to.

Also, have a look around the site to see what techniques other people use that work for them. Since I joined these forums I've started using techniques that I basically swore I'd never use again, because certain people here (notably Iversen) have described adapted version of those methods that are much more effective and enjoyable.

Have fun :-)

Liz

Yeah, music is a good call. I made an Italian playlist on my player a while back. Ramazzotti, Dirisio, Ferro and their ilk. I used to just listen to those songs casually but now I feel obligated to try and record unknown words :)

I guess interviews are a good idea too, because the language is everyday language.

Do you find it's better to start with a listening only or a text based approach? You mention Assimil, as far as I know they do English/Italian side by side with audio tapes reading the text?

The "having fun" advice is a bit overstated. It's not as if people seek out ways not to have fun :)

One last thing, have you had any trouble with "excessive" study? What I mean is when something is new and exciting to me I tend to go a little overboard (ahem) and run through a ton of material in a day or in a couple of days, that is actually meant to be learned in the course of a week or weeks. Which I imagine hurts my learning quite a bit. For instance, I did the Italian 101 course on livemocha.com in a day and a half.

jeff_lindqvist wrote:

Jeff, lindqvist is only a tweak away from linguist. Hah, I'm sure you never heard that joke before. :/
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Aeroflot
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Message 11 of 16

21 August 2009 at 7:16pm | IP Logged

I never keep track of hours because that has no bering on how much I've actually learned.
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Lizzern
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Message 12 of 16

21 August 2009 at 7:26pm | IP Logged

I tend to use a course that uses both text and audio, and then anything that interests me as additional material. In the beginning, when I don't know most of the words, that tends to mean music, which I can enjoy regardless, and then I'll increasingly include other things that interest me but that I wouldn't be able to understand when I first got started. I'm not really a fan of reading if I have to look up 90% of the words, so I only do that in a structured course environment in the beginning, and I've found Assimil's Italian-on-the-left-English-on-the-right approach to work, though I don't think I use their course exactly as they describe - if you do get the course, experiment until you find an approach that works for you.

When you're able to understand a bit more than you can in the very beginning then try to find stuff to read that interests you as well. I don't know how much Italian you know but check out Personalità confusa, great fun to read! Just find stuff like that for the language you're learning and it'll be much more rewarding than struggling with stuff you don't care about.

The 'have fun' thing was not intended as a piece of advice per se :-) but since you mentioned it I do think it's underrated. It can really help keep you going, it keeps you from getting stale and frustrated with your study, and keeps it enjoyable - and I do believe we learn better when we're having fun than if we're not enjoying what we're doing (and yes I've had both types of experiences in language learning).

I started Italian 101 on Livemocha a while back and it just wasn't for me (I would have more fun scrubbing the shower), so I don't know how much is involved, but I've tried a more intensive approach before where I would basically cram the basics in about 3 weeks and then take it from there, it worked well enough for me to pass the exams I needed to pass at the time, long story but overall it was a bad idea because I just forgot things shortly after. How much is too much would depend on each person but I wouldn't want to do that now unless there were particular things I was curious about, then I would read about those even if I wasn't 'supposed' to learn them. I tend to just start with a beginner's course that takes you through the basics in a sensible order and then use input that I like, and doing it that way I don't burn out, it's never too much, and I have yet to find Italian unenjoyable even for a moment.

Liz
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Iversen
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Message 13 of 16

21 August 2009 at 7:55pm | IP Logged

I keep track of when I have to take the bus to get to work, and I also have to keep an eye on the clock to see something on TV. And that's enough. I don't want to clock my study hours.
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Splog
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Message 14 of 16

21 August 2009 at 8:51pm | IP Logged

I found that unless I track my hours I end up either overly optimistic or overly pessimistic about how much time I have spent on languages during the week. This uncertainty creates a gentle anxiety that I don't want to associate with languages.

I use Google Calendar to track each day on a 30-minute basis. This helps me see gaps where I have goofed off and stimulates me to get back on track. On top of this, I spend an hour a day on a "wildcard" language (dabbling in one of a dozen languages just for the heck of it) and only allow myself to do that when studying of my major languages has been completed for the day.

It also lets me know when I should take a break from languages (if I have done more than 10 hours a day) and go play my guitar, go for a beer with friends, or spend time with my wife.
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habadzi
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Message 15 of 16

21 August 2009 at 11:03pm | IP Logged

The forum seems frequented by olympic-size competitive language learners. I am a female focused on language use for specific purposes, and it never dawned on me to count hours. I don't particularly like the task either, but at my age I have a reputation to maintain! Learning the next language I need has become an anti-aging exercise.
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habadzi
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Message 16 of 16

21 August 2009 at 11:42pm | IP Logged

I am not sure it's humanly possible to make correct sentences in French just from books (or even courses). Consider listening to audio content at least 15 times per text and subvocalizing. If you are intermediate or higher, go to champselysees.com for such audio-based content with transcripts.

numerodix wrote:

habadzi wrote:

The question is what you are going to do with the language you are learning. Do you need to travel on a certain date for tourism, understand movies or TV, work, need to read certain documents within reasonable time for work or study? need to enchant a significant other with your prowess? Each of these goals has a slightly different performance goal.

That's not an issue, I know what my goals are. Basically I never begin to come near them, that's how early I've quit in the past. Mostly because of how unsatisfying the process was. I would spend some time on it and feel like it hadn't really given me anything concrete. Sure I knew more words, and I had seen more grammar, but it wasn't measurable anyway and I couldn't say when or how I would reach a point where I could actually begin to speak the language rather than just repeat words or sentences. French grammar has frustrated me to no end, and I basically can't put together a correct sentence after years of some schooling and some individual effort.

But then in the past I never kept track of time so I wonder if that could be a small step towards greater transparency in the process.

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