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’Must have languages’ for polyglots? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| jbbar Senior Member Belgium Joined 5742 days ago 192 posts - 210 votes  Speaks: English | Message 97 of 149 29 March 2009 at 7:08am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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I find it funny that I am getting lectured for some perceived "Eurocentric-ness" by a Tagalog and English speaker living in New Zealand who is studying Spanish. I'm sorry but I I think I've already explained quite clearly why I don't consider my list to be Eurocentric at all.
Geography 101. Spanish may be European in origin but the overwhelming majority of its speakers are Latin American mestizos and many more live in North America. That makes two non-European continents, including many nations often not considered to be fully Western. French may be an European language but it is spoken or understood in almost all African countries by a huge number of people. English may be an European language but it is spoken across the world in Europe, Africa, North America, Oceania, South Asia and parts of the Far East, particularly South East Asia (excluding most of Indochina but Philippines included), with most speakers actually being located in North America, the U.S. to be precise. Last time I checked, Malaysia, Singapore, Bangladesh and India were not any less Asian than Korea. Russian may be an European language but it is spoken, understood or taught in quite a number of *Asian* countries, particularly Central Asia, and a significant minority in Israel. Last time I checked, Israel, Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan were not any less Asian than China or Myanmar. You really think there is no global perspective? I take it you don't think English and French are pretty much essential to people working for international organizations then. Working languages of the UN, EU, NATO, MERCOSUR, ASEAN, IAEA, etc - of no particular significance in your opinion? Well, I'm sure you'll find some way to call me Eurocentric again but I sure beg to differ. So for the average person I maintain that it is especially English, French, Spanish or German, Russian, perhaps Portuguese and arguably Chinese, that will be most rewarding or relevant. Oh yes, I did mention Mandarin and Arabic in the list in my first post. How Eurocentric of mine! Especially when compared to all these other people who have posted lists that are also consisting largely of "European" ones. Maybe it's time to wake up and face the fact that Western nations are currently the most powerful ones and hence their languages are more wide-spread and generally more important. As far as language education is concerned, I was thinking particularly of commie and socialist dictatorships or former-Commmunist states like Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Mongolia, North Korea, Myanmar, etc. Makes me wonder what parts of Asia are actually free at all, but I digress. I thought that it was rather obvious what I was trying to say by that but apparently not. Hopefully, apart from some hardcore relativists or indoctrinated people maybe, nobody here in his right mind believes that all or most of these states do *not* have poor education systems. jbbar Edited by jbbar on 29 March 2009 at 7:26am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Raчraч Ŋuɲa Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5760 days ago 154 posts - 233 votes Speaks: Bikol languages*, Tagalog, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, Russian, Japanese | Message 98 of 149 29 March 2009 at 11:48am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
We are speaking here of a "global language" since your the first one to use that phrase in this thread, are we? Any one of them does not count as a global language, even English. And to group them as a bunch so you can say "European languages are simply the most useful ones from a global perspective" is ineffective and not synergistic since they are mutually unintelligible.
If I am not mistaken, you are equating "working language" with "global language". The two are different. As I understood it, a global language is so ubiquitous that it saturates every corner of the world, not just those international bodies. A truly global language is one that anywhere you go you can converse in it to the majority of local people. Is there a language like that, honestly? Even john234 said "English is becoming a global language". Now THAT is a more accurate way of describing the current state of English, and from a native English speaker. If English is not, how much more French, Spanish, German, Russian and Portuguese? I don't dispute that they're essential, by the way. Well, if you persist in the idea that a global language is a working language and vice versa, I won't bother you in your world.
Even David Crystal's definition as quoted by reineke is subjective and unhelpful. Just what is that "special status"? And special to whom when and where?
Your actually the one who put yourself in this quicksand. No one called you Eurocentric, yet you protested. Remember the below post? Why ascribe the guilt to someone else?
What is Eurocentric about that post? Your claiming a reality out there, a reality that European languages are "the most useful ones" (without qualifications) from a global perspective (what is? which one?). Please re-read my previous post why I objected to that. I did not call you Eurocentric just because you've listed mostly European languages. A lot of people here did that and I think there is nothing wrong with those because they never claimed what you did. Well, if your Chinese and your claiming that Mandarin is a global language because it is a working language of UN, then I will call you Sinocentric. Don't get me wrong. There is no harm in listing mostly European languages and I even agree that one should cherish one's own. But to superimpose your value judgements on non-Europeans, that's another story. How haughty!
Now you know why I did a little bit of "lecturing"?
Point taken for that misunderstood "poor education system". Edited by Raчraч Ŋuɲa on 29 March 2009 at 12:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6084 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 99 of 149 29 March 2009 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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..in no particular order...
English Spanish French Russian Greek (modern or ancient) German Arabic Japanese and/or Mandarin Swahili Hindi Other languages could also be sprinkled in or substituted: Italian Portuguese Thai Vietnamese Polish Norwegian Latin Korean etc. This is a very subjective topic. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| jbbar Senior Member Belgium Joined 5742 days ago 192 posts - 210 votes Speaks: English | Message 100 of 149 29 March 2009 at 10:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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To Mr. Raчraч Ŋuɲa :
"Your view of reality is largely a European view. In my ASIAN reality, there is no truly global language." -- yourself "Your "us" have indeed a Eurocentric view and clinging to it. " -- yourself I was not particularly under the impression that you did not call me Eurocentric. I have no reason at all to believe I must have been extremely tired or confused to have mistaken your earlier message for a condemnation of my perceived 'language Eurocentrism'. Now if we were talking politics or culture, then yes, I full-heartedly say I am an Eurocentrist as I believe in the preeminence of Western civilization, or at least what it used to be until some people decided to hijack it. Nevertheless, I have always had a great deal of interest and respect for many other countries and civilizations. I don't believe I have to justify myself to anyone on this and it is really irrelevant to the discussion anyway. But since you have accused me of being Eurocentrist in my recommendations of 'must-have' languages despite the fact that I have repeatedly mentioned Mandarin and Arabic as being considerably important and possibly quite relevant languages to study for a great deal of people, I thought I had no choice but to state this plain and clear for once and for all. You are making quite a fuzz about the issue of usefulness. No offense but I must say you strike me as a very relativistic person who would appear to be out of touch with reality. Do I really have to repeat myself on this and explain to you all over again why I see English, French and other mostly European languages *in orgin* as being more important from a global point of view? What languages are highly in-demand in trade and commerce, in government, defense and diplomacy, not least major international organizations? That is what I have meant by "global" perspective and "global" languages. Substitute "global" for "international" if you must. I really don't see what much of a difference it makes. You must really love hairsplitting for suggesting that I believe in English as "the language of the world" as you appear to interpret what I called a "global language". You are simply ignoring the actual points I've been making by turning it all into some debate about "globalness". Nice try but since that was not how I was using this word and I was actually trying to establish what might be those "must-have" languages, your argument is entirely irrelevant to me. Also, what are you actually doing here anyway? You don't seem to believe there are must-have languages because it's all way too relative and you can't make any general statements. So why don't you create your own thread instead so you can write your views and rants there. For a language forum I thought I could expect a bit more common sense or the ability to grasp what someone is saying even if the wording is not perfectly accurate. I know many people still have that quality. But apparently nowadays you have to define just about any word you use into detail in order to get your point across or justify your claims to some people. Even if some consider that to be intelligent, I'm more inclined to say it reminds me of its antonym. Any debate ends up as an endless semantic or politically correct chit-chat these days. I really don't see the fuzz and I am not going to waste any more time on this. I am always open to criticism but when people must insist that I am something that I am not then they are being irrational and cannot be argued with. Go question another one of a dozen 'Eurocentrists'. There appear to be plenty more of them. jbbar Edited by jbbar on 29 March 2009 at 11:12pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| portunhol Triglot Senior Member United States thelinguistblogger.w Joined 6194 days ago 198 posts - 299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: German, Arabic (classical) | Message 101 of 149 29 March 2009 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Prof. Arguelles’ list is the best but, just as food for thought, I have a list of suggestions for aspiring American Polyglots:
1. Spanish 2. A language of your local immigrant population that is not Spanish. 3. A major European language that is not English, Spanish or another immigrant language of your community. 4. A language from your family heritage not already chosen. 5. A Middle Eastern language. 6. A Far Eastern language. Here’s why I think these languages are good for Americans. 1. It is highly unlikely that you will find more useful language in the USA than Spanish - besides English of course. I was once as many of you are now and avoided Spanish but now that I speak it fluently I realize what a fool I was. 2. This may be a little less applicable to those of you who live in very remote areas but it will be something very useful and educational for most Americans. This category could be almost anything, depending on where you live: Mandarin, Ukrainian, Farsi, Cantonese, Hindi, Vietnamese, Amharic, Cambodian, etc. 3. The first two languages are extremely practical and are likely to help you professionally. While this category is not as practical, it will expose you to a wealth of literature and help you understand your own culture and history even better. 4. Many Americans take joy in this category and learn minority languages like Scottish or Irish Gaelic and Welsh. Depending on who you are, this could possibly mean learning Tagalog, Danish, Dutch or maybe even Lakota. Most of us who are third generation or more have pretty varied family trees so there are lots of languages to choose from. 5. We Americans are far too involved in the Muslim world for our Polyglots not to know a Middle Eastern language. Even if you don’t work for the government this will give a positive understanding of world events that will enrich your life and the lives of those who you know. 6. Over the past fifty years or so the Far East has shown more promise than any other region of the world. Japan is an undeniably important country, China is predicted to be the country of the future and South Korea quietly becomes stronger and more affluent every day. Thailand and Vietnam are also up-and-coming countries that are hard to ignore. The first two languages on this list can be used actively, so you have a greater chance of gaining and maintaining fluency even if you never leave the country. Most of them that are difficult to use actively have a wide body of literature. This list also forces the average American to learn at least two languages that are little to nothing like English. Additionally, it requires Americans to know at least five languages. An American with an advanced knowledge of languages on a list like this (ex. English, Spanish, Hindi, French, Norwegian, Farsi and Thai) would be a pretty impressive Polyglot by most people’s standards. Edited by portunhol on 30 March 2009 at 6:45pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6084 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 102 of 149 30 March 2009 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
That's a pretty good system. I like it. However, I might change "Spanish" to "an important foreign language where you live" to make it more global. But you did say that it was for an American polyglot. Hm... For me: 1.) Spanish (check!) 2.) not sure... 3.) Portuguese, French, Italian, German... 4.) Greek 5.) Arabic, Farsi, or Turkish...possibly Hindi (if we count that as a Middle Eastern language), but probably Arabic 6.) Japanese, maybe Mandarin 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| mick33 Senior Member United States Joined 5866 days ago 1335 posts - 1632 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Finnish Studies: Thai, Polish, Afrikaans, Hindi, Hungarian, Italian, Spanish, Swedish | Message 103 of 149 31 March 2009 at 12:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| portunhol Triglot Senior Member United States thelinguistblogger.w Joined 6194 days ago 198 posts - 299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: German, Arabic (classical) | Message 104 of 149 31 March 2009 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
I'm glad that you like it. I think that most aspiring American polyglots (myself included) could benefit from using this list. Your list looks quite impressive. I don't think Hindi is considered a Middle Eastern language and I'm doubtful about Turkish being considered Middle Eastern either but Arabic and Farsi certainly are.
I intended this list to be sort of a baseline, or as you put it: a starting off point. If you have the time and inclination to become proficient in more than six foreign languages then that's great; more power to you! Sometimes the thought of knowing ten or twelve languages well overwhelms me and I start to trim down my list but then I inevitably start to put languages back on it. As far as Arabic goes, Egyptian and Modern Standard are the two most widely understood dialects and they have the most learning materials. I've heard that Lebanese Arabic is rather well understood as well and have seen a few courses out there in that dialect. Best of luck to you both! Edited by portunhol on 31 March 2009 at 8:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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