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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6785 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes  Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 145 of 182 12 January 2010 at 3:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Just finished reviewing chapter 18 on congiuntivo presente e passato. Contrary to what I've been saying about reviews lately, this one was quite satisfying. Congiuntivo is the tense that's caused me the most trouble, and so I felt while I was learning the chapter that I hadn't grasped more than just the very basics. But now my Italian comprehension is a bit more solid and I'm better able to understand the intent of this tense, what's really intended to be said.
Unfortunately, it's used in so many different cases that it's hard to remember them all, but I now see how there is a certain overall logic to when you're supposed to use it. It's interesting, because this kind of thing doesn't seem to exist in other languages I know, not in the actual grammar itself! I understand it now to the degree that I would understand the average chapter before the review. Then the review would come and solidify that. Now I'm not gonna review chapter 18 again, but I am going to keep my eyes open for congiuntivo in my passive learning, to reinforce the clearer view I have on it now. Edited by numerodix on 12 January 2010 at 3:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| densou Senior Member Italy foto.webalice.it/denRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6134 days ago 120 posts - 121 votes Speaks: Italian* | Message 146 of 182 13 January 2010 at 1:03am | IP Logged | |||||
perhaps I should test you.... :P :P :P 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6785 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 147 of 182 13 January 2010 at 1:13am | IP Logged | |||||
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What do you have in mind? :)
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| staf250 Pentaglot Senior Member Belgium emmerick.be Joined 5699 days ago 352 posts - 414 votes Speaks: French, Dutch*, Italian, English, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 148 of 182 14 January 2010 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
I have read the whole post, zooming in to the textbook and to your handwritings. Studying this way while using the right book certainly shall bring the results you deserve :) Edited by staf250 on 14 January 2010 at 3:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| staf250 Pentaglot Senior Member Belgium emmerick.be Joined 5699 days ago 352 posts - 414 votes Speaks: French, Dutch*, Italian, English, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 149 of 182 14 January 2010 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
I could not find anything about the congiuntivo presente e passato in my -mentioned above- grammar/text/exercises book. So I am studying those tenses now in "Italian Verbs for Dummies". I hope to get soon the full meaning and intention of the congiuntivo. Your work and your post are giving me some new motivation and inspiration. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6785 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 150 of 182 14 January 2010 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
I really think it is the right book. A few weeks ago I was looking around some textbooks for Dutch and most of them I didn't like very much.
Glad to hear it :) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| staf250 Pentaglot Senior Member Belgium emmerick.be Joined 5699 days ago 352 posts - 414 votes Speaks: French, Dutch*, Italian, English, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 151 of 182 14 January 2010 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
Looking to Dutch from my position as dutch-speaking, and thinking at Italian, I think Italian grammar is more straightforward. :( 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6785 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 152 of 182 17 January 2010 at 11:02am | IP Logged | |||||
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GRAMMAR SUMMARY: CONGIUNTIVO IMPERFETTO E TRAPASSATO
Finished the chapter on congiuntivo imperfetto e trapassato. It's more complicated than presente and passato. REGULAR FORMS Obviously, what makes congiuntivo tricky is knowing the conditions that require its presence. There are many of these and some are quite idiosyncratic (for example you have to use congiuntivo after words that express the meaning of "any", that is: chiunque, qualunque, qualsiasi...) But once you establish that then using it is very simple, because it's the same as indicativo. Presente: - So che Carla è a casa. - Penso che Carla sia a casa. Passato: - So che l'hai saputo da Marco. - Suppongo che l'abbia saputo da Marco. Congiuntivo imperfetto follows the same pattern, for starters. It replaces imperfetto indicativo. Imperfetto: - Sapevo che Carla era a casa. - Pensavo che Carla fosse a casa. Trapassato: - Sapevo che l'avevi saputo da Marco. - Supponevo che l'avessi saputo da Marco. So far so good. Unfortunately, now comes the part where the tenses are mixed in a way that's different from how they are normally used. IRREGULAR FORMS Congiuntivo imperfetto is also used with condizionale semplice when the latter expresses a desire. This is very odd, because now you are combining the prospect of some event in the future by stating it in terms of the past. - Desideravo che Carla venisse con noi. - Desiderei che Carla venisse con noi. And it also applies to the "conditional in the past", condizionale composto. You even have a choice between imperfetto and trapassato. - Avrei desiderato che Carla venisse con noi. - Avrei desiderato che Carla fosse venuta con noi. However, when condizionale doesn't express a wish, you fall back on congiuntivo presente. This is again regular. - Direi che Carla faccia bene a venire con noi. There is one more thing. I imagine this exists because there is no congiuntivo futuro. And so somehow the past tense of congiuntivo got tangled up into this context where it doesn't seem to fit at all. I will contrast it with futuro to make it clearer. - Vincerà il Milan. - Almeno vincesse il Milan! The first is a statement of fact, or at least formulated as such. The second is a statement of hope, and it's using congiuntivo imperfetto. This form also comes up when you're speculating on something. - Anche a me è sembrato che Laura era un po' fredda con te. - Che fosse offesa perché non le ho telefonato? This way to begin a sentence: "Che fosse" or che followed by a verb in congiuntivo imperfetto, is a way to offer a hypothesis for something. Edited by numerodix on 17 January 2010 at 11:58am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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