Studying a language to native fluency (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Studying a language to native fluency
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 6703 days ago
9078 posts - 16473 votes

Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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Message 33 of 96

27 September 2009 at 10:38pm | IP Logged

I could choose to focus on a few languages but I guess I would soon find that boring...

Look at the practical situation: I don't have to stray far away from Danish, English, German and maybe a few more before my chances of meeting people speaking these languages where I live are reduced to almost zero. So having too high expectations for these languages would be stupid and selfdefeating. Instead I want to learn a lot of languages, which I do by thinking in my languages (but that is like playing chess with yourself), and I travel as much as possible (but never for extended periods). So my chances to become indistinguishable from native speakers of these languages are slim indeed. But I can attain a reasonable level in many languages, instead of fighting in vain to become a star in just a few.

English is a special case because it is so common here that it isn't lack of exposure that keeps me back. But as I have written elsewhere my English is a mixture of influences from all kinds of English, whereas a native speaker normally has one stable and genuine accent, determined by the place where that person was born.

Quite generally I doubt that you can become native-like without living for some time in a place where your target language is spoken - though there will of course always be exceptions, such as the guy who made his own 100% Japanese bubble or maybe some persons who have a natural talent for imitation and absorption that is superior to mine. So I have have chosen an easier task, namely to learn a lot of languages to a level where I can use them during my travels, and then time will tell if I ever get higher than that.

It's quite another matter with passive skills, - there I see no reason to settle for less than full understanding of everything I meet in magazines, books, TV and on the internet. There will of course always be technical jargon that is beyond me, but if the same jargon is beyond almost all native speakers then I don't mind. Personally I think that the most difficult task of all is eavesdropping on a bus or in the streets - but luckily I don't need to be able to perform this herculean task in anything more than a few core languages.

Edited by Iversen on 27 September 2009 at 10:51pm
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Lizzern
Diglot
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 5909 days ago
791 posts - 1053 votes

Speaks: Norwegian*, English
Studies: Japanese

Message 34 of 96

27 September 2009 at 10:49pm | IP Logged

Iversen wrote:

English is a special case because it is so common here that it isn't lack of exposure that keeps me back. But as I have wrtten elsewhere my English is a mixture of influences from all kinds of English, whereas a native speaker normally has one stable and genuine accent, determined by the place where that person was born.

Definitely true. Accent-wise I've been told several times that I sound incredibly American, but I always eventually expose myself as an imposter by using British or Australian vocabulary, or there might be occasional word that I pronounce differently (and there's always the possibility of grammar mistakes - obviously). It's almost always something I've picked up from a native speaker, rather than being a Norwegian thing. It can't be helped - sometimes it's just how we learned things in school, and I've had significant exposure to every major form of English through friends and teachers. But I think it could be rooted out if we worked at it. Not something I would spend my time on - so many other fun languages to learn! - but it probably could be done if we wanted to polish it to perfection.

And if we could do it with English, why not another language as well? :-)

Liz
1 person has voted this message useful

datsunking1
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5585 days ago
1014 posts - 1533 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French

Message 35 of 96

28 September 2009 at 4:16am | IP Logged

Like honestly, everyone says English is "so hard" or "one of the hardest" languages to learn, yet I meet people from other countries and ask them how long they have been studying. A girl in my Spanish class learned English in 6 months, and spoke it perfectly. She carried a portuguese to English dictionary like an appendage, but either way I was amazed. Then I picture myself trying to express my thoughts/feelings or being taught in another language, and I feel that I have no where near the level of understanding of another language like they did of my native English. I honestly don't know how they learn. (Yes, Jealous)

I've just chosen to focus on 3 other languages in my life, to near perfection. German, Italian, and Spanish. honestly, I'm addicted to them all, I love they way they sound, the flow, everything. I can't get enough. I really want to master them so that I can teach them to my children so that they have a life advantage without even knowing it. They will be able to talk to me, and people from all over the world. Why American school teach foreign language at 8th or 9th grade is beyond me. lol

I really wish my folks would have taught me a language when I was young. (besides English) It would have been easier :)

Edited by datsunking1 on 28 September 2009 at 4:23am
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irrationale
Tetraglot
Senior Member
China
Joined 6050 days ago
669 posts - 1023 votes

2 sounds
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Tagalog
Studies: Ancient Greek, Japanese

Message 36 of 96

28 September 2009 at 6:23am | IP Logged

Lizzern wrote:

I know Bruce, I answered that way on purpose :-) Personally I don't necessarily think 3 is that high a number - a committed student could probably do it in a decade. Still impressive though, obviously!

I can't claim to have reached native-level fluency in any language from self-study, not even English. I went to an international school for the last 3 years of high school, which meant full-on immersion. Even people who weren't particularly good at English that started at the same time as me ended up with a pretty good level of English by the time we graduated, reaching native fluency from there is probably just a matter of correcting one's own mistakes carefully and learning more about the nuances of the language and associated cultures.

Here's some of the aspects of how we learned English just from attending that school, which imho would take anyone to advanced knowledge of a language given the right amount of time:
- Using the language every day, in situations where you couldn't revert back to your own language (Norwegian was pretty much irrelevant there, with the obvious exception of Norwegian class and talking to Norwegian-speaking friends)
- Having your mistakes (spoken or in essays) corrected, and developing the drive to not make any more of those mistakes in the first place
- Studying texts aimed at native speakers, including (of course) texts that were not made with the aim of language learning
- Learning to speak at a natural speed without fear of error (nobody was reprimanded for making mistakes, simply corrected)
- Discussing a variety of subjects in detail
- Making yourself go through the difficulty (sometimes) of talking about something in English that you'd only ever discussed or thought about in your native language

All those things could be replicated in a non-immersion environment - reading about the topics you're interested in but replacing native language material with the equivalent in your target language, speaking to native speakers (on skype, etc) who will correct you even if it seems a little mean to do so (to get comfortable with speaking fast and to learn how to say the right thing as you go), having your writing corrected by native speakers to learn about your own grammar mistakes so you can stop making them, and teaching yourself to function beyond 'adequately' in any situation that you could handle well in your native language.

Read AJATT, he's done it.

Liz

Will any others that have gone to native fluency agree with this?

I keep hearing of these mythological figures that speak native-like, surely there are some of these on this forum, no? Can any one give their thoughts to these above points?
1 person has voted this message useful

healing332
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5620 days ago
164 posts - 211 votes

Message 37 of 96

28 September 2009 at 9:18pm | IP Logged

[QUOTE=datsunking1] I found a 1950's "Berlitz Self-Teacher: German" in my local library, the content it has is absolutely amazing. I'm going to start when I get back from work today and do the first few lessons. I'm doing Spanish right now as I type :D

QUOTE]
I have found the public library to be the most amazing and incredible forgotten resource. I Have found so many language tools and all for free( dvd's..audio tapes..books in the target language..pimsluer..articles..internet..all for FREE)

(For me 10 to 20 Dvd's...a great grammar book.. books in your target language...and you can reach near fluency all for Free from the public library!...I say near fluency because you have to speak and the library will not do that for you)
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datsunking1
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5585 days ago
1014 posts - 1533 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French

Message 38 of 96

29 September 2009 at 2:07am | IP Logged

Healing, I completely agree. I'm very happy with my local library, and I spend a couple hours there every saturday morning rifling through books of numerous topics :)

1 person has voted this message useful

showtime17
Trilingual Hexaglot
Senior Member
Slovakia
gainweightjournal.co
Joined 6084 days ago
154 posts - 210 votes

Speaks: Russian, English*, Czech*, Slovak*, French, Spanish
Studies: Ukrainian, Polish, Dutch

Message 39 of 96

08 October 2009 at 1:21am | IP Logged

tommus wrote:

Thatzright wrote:

I think achieving "native fluency" in any other language than the one you've been speaking since you were a toddler is almost impossible, or is going to take a very long time.

I believe there are reasonable numbers of people who have never achieved native fluency in any language. One reason would be to move to a new country at age 10 or so, having not yet reached total fluency, and then maybe move again into a third language. And there are those who have lost native fluency in their native language without gaining native fluency in their current language. I know a few in this second group. One of my Dutch friends has lived in Canada for 35 years, but didn't realise until recently that there were separate words in English for price and prize. In Dutch, the same word is used for both. He also still has a very obvious Dutch accent. Although he still speaks fluent Dutch, it probably is no longer completely native.

Are there any Forum members who feel they may be in either of these two groups?

I think by age 10 you have already acquired native fluency in a language, however the key here is continue speaking that language at home as well. And at age 10 you can still start a new language and acquire native fluency in it. When I was little I lived in Prague and went to Czech school, so had native fluency in Czech and since my dad is Slovak, we spoke Slovak at home, so native fluency in that language as well. At age 10, we moved to the US and I acquired native fluency in English as well. So by age 13 I had native fluency in 3 languages. However after that I stopped using Czech and my language deteriorated, even though I still speak it fluently, native speakers tell me I have an accent now, which pisses me off. I do still however have native fluency in Slovak and English.
4 persons have voted this message useful

tommus
Senior Member
CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5866 days ago
979 posts - 1688 votes

Speaks: English*
Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish

Message 40 of 96

08 October 2009 at 4:33am | IP Logged

showtime17 wrote:

So by age 13 I had native fluency in 3 languages. However after that I stopped using Czech and my language deteriorated, even though I still speak it fluently, native speakers tell me I have an accent now, which pisses me off. I do still however have native fluency in Slovak and English.

You are very fortunate to be so comfortable in three languages. You didn't quite address it, but I assume you would probably say you achieved fluency in these three languages more or less effortlessly. I also assume by your comments that you will probably ensure that your Czech doesn't deteriorate any further. It would be a great loss.

Thanks for sharing this with us. Very appropriate story for this forum. Would you care to comment on your fluency in the other languages that your profile shows you speak and are studying, and your goals in these languages? These sorts of things are very motivational to many of the rest of us who have found second and more languages so difficult to acquire.

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