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Studying a language to native fluency | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5585 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 65 of 96 15 October 2009 at 2:10am | IP Logged | |||||
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I want to have the same fluency as a well-educated teen would, not a scholar-like adult. I certainly think it's possible, I don't want to be "hung up" on anything, I want it to come without with thinking.
German is really clicking with me, and my Spanish audio comprehension isn't very good right now, it's my weak point, I can read very well though. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| mike789 Newbie United States Joined 6327 days ago 39 posts - 51 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 66 of 96 15 October 2009 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
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this debate reminds me of the Turing Test, which says that a machine would be considered to have intelligence if an observer in conversation with a human and the machine can't distinguish which is which. While somewhat controversial, it has been an important benchmark in Artificial Intelligence research.
To me, "native fluency" is a similar standard. Talking with a person who didn't grow up speaking the language, can a true native speaker tell the other person is not? My belief, and I have to call it that, is true native proficiency is a goal that is unlikely to be achieved. Sure, you can learn enough to function without trouble. But there are some things that I think still will give people away. I work with a number of international people, many of whom are perfectly fluent in English. However they often don't know the US aphorisms/idioms and lore than a person growing up here usually learns in school. For example, if a version of the phrase "I cannot tell a lie" is used it immediately triggers an association in US-raised speakers that I doubt many not raised here would get. And adults of a similar age probably remember lines from songs and commercials that were widely heard when they were younger, lines that a recent language learner never would have heard. Throw in a few references to TV shows from the 80's while speaking to someone in their 30's and the US-born will get it while others may not. As a side note, one way the British were reputed to test to see if someone was a spy during WWII was to ask them to do simple math verbally; for example, "what is 35 minus 19?" Math is easily learnable, of course, but the point is that while schoolchildren would have been exposed to questions like this and have had plenty of practice, adult learners seldom repeat elementary math in their new language. Adult learners typically have to translate the numbers into their primary language, then translate back the answer. Ask someone who speaks English pretty well to do a few problems like this out loud and the results may surprise you... Edited by mike789 on 15 October 2009 at 11:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6034 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes 5 sounds | Message 67 of 96 15 October 2009 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
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mike789, just out of curiosity, how would you verbalise 35 minus 19?
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| mike789 Newbie United States Joined 6327 days ago 39 posts - 51 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 68 of 96 16 October 2009 at 7:35am | IP Logged | |||||
I think the reason it was supposed to trip people up is that jumping around in numbers isn't a skill you practice much after grade school. If asked 45 - 7 I might say "take away 5 makes 40, 2 more makes 38". And in turn I'm curious since this is just something I've read but have no 1st-hand experience with -- can you do this just as fluently in all 3 languages? Edited by mike789 on 16 October 2009 at 7:40am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 69 of 96 16 October 2009 at 11:36am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm surprised that anybody would verbalize calculations like that, - I would 'see' the numbers just as if I had written them on paper, and if they were too complicated I would actually do them on paper.
Actually there is one thing that makes numbers more difficult to learn than other language elements: you mostly se large numbers written as numbers, not as text. So you can actually get far in your language learning without seeing 17593 spelled out or pronouncing it in your mind because you just think the 'picture' of the number. Then when you listen to economical news or lectures on astronomy or physics you are lost. The antidote is of course to train yourself in number handling. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5669 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 70 of 96 16 October 2009 at 11:51am | IP Logged | |||||
It is exactly this that makes going to parties so painful and depressing. When all the "natives" are a bit drunk and they start recounting funny stories from childhood - about TV shows, or candy that used to be available, or things that all kids used to collect - and so on. It can really hammer home that you remain an outsider, no matter how much effort you have put into integrating and learning the language. What I find particularly embarrassing is when some kind person in the group stops the flow of conversion to include me and explain everything ("oh, pedro gum had no flavour, but it was the only one available"). It makes me feel that me being there is sucking the very joy out of the party for everybody else, and so I usually end up leaving early so others can enjoy themselves at full speed. Edited by Splog on 16 October 2009 at 11:52am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5909 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 71 of 96 16 October 2009 at 11:57am | IP Logged | |||||
I could not do this fluently in my native language. And not everyone goes through calculations like that... I'm not sure I remember how we did this, and I would have to think about it before answering (in my native language). Edited by Lizzern on 16 October 2009 at 12:31pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6034 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes 5 sounds | Message 72 of 96 16 October 2009 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
My thinking goes as follows: 35 - 19... that's like 25-9... or 20-4... which makes 16. Basically, I reduce everything to a handful of simple operations that I know how to perform. Also, just as Iversen said, there's no need to verbalize it. Normally I would imagine the numbers floating in my head and probably won't be "fluent" even in my native language because verbalizing is such a distraction. I think these spy tests were probably based not on fluency but rather on the occasional slip of the tongue and tell-tale foreign word. If the test is repeated for sufficiently long time the suspect will grow tired and careless. I've also heard that when women give birth they always scream in their native language. So if you wana detect a sneaky spy, make her pregnant and wait 9 months ;). 1 person has voted this message useful |
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