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Gusutafu
Senior Member
Sweden
Joined 5522 days ago
655 posts - 1039 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*
| Message 137 of 249 16 November 2009 at 9:21pm | IP Logged |
cordelia0507 wrote:
However my new "image" on this site as some kind of extreme left-wing radical just because I don't love everything about USA / English language / consumerism had started to wear me down a bit..
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Sorry about that, I am afraid that is mostly my fault!
2 persons have voted this message useful
| Cainntear
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Scotland
linguafrankly.blogsp
Joined 6012 days ago
4399 posts - 7687 votes
Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh
| Message 138 of 249 16 November 2009 at 9:21pm | IP Logged |
Buttons wrote:
| The English speaking countries have the reputation for being more rich than other parts of the world. There are homeless and extremelly poor people from these English speaking countries but people from other parts of the world do not think of this. They only focus on those who have been successful in life. So they see English speaking countries as having money and a better way of life and for obvious reasons, they want this lifestyle too. Intertwined with this, is that people can easily marvel at these successful people from English speaking cultures with the advent of the internet, music and TV channels. |
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I'm reminded of the film Annie. A communism jumps in through the window with a bomb and when Annie asks why they want to kill the rich capitalist he says it's because he's proof that the system works. I never quite worked out how one rich man for every ten poor men was proof that the system worked, but maybe I'm just not intelligent enough to be a capitalist....
Volte wrote:
Hoopskidoodle wrote:
| Moreover, I don't think it insignificant that (in the U.S. in particular) no matter where you emigrate from, your children--presumably raised in the U.S. and speaking English without an accent--will be as American as anyone whose ancestors lived in 17th century Jamestown. Perhaps there are non-English-speaking countries with the same combination of personal freedom and freedom from the tyranny of conventionalism, but they haven't marketed themselves nearly as well. |
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Modern Berlin strikes me as fitting this description to a T.
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Whereas Mobile, Alabama, less so.
4 persons have voted this message useful
| cordelia0507
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5839 days ago
1473 posts - 2176 votes
Speaks: Swedish*
Studies: German, Russian
| Message 139 of 249 16 November 2009 at 9:39pm | IP Logged |
Quote:
| The English speaking countries have the reputation for being more rich than other parts of the world. |
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Well... Switzerland, Scandinavia and Benelux are ahead of all English speaking countries in terms of GDP per capita. Since the class differences are smaller you can assume that people in general have a very comfortable lifestyle.
3 persons have voted this message useful
| Gusutafu
Senior Member
Sweden
Joined 5522 days ago
655 posts - 1039 votes
Speaks: Swedish*
| Message 140 of 249 16 November 2009 at 9:58pm | IP Logged |
cordelia0507 wrote:
Quote:
| The English speaking countries have the reputation for being more rich than other parts of the world. |
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Well... Switzerland, Scandinavia and Benelux are ahead of all English speaking countries in terms of GDP per capita. Since the class differences are smaller you can assume that people in general have a very comfortable lifestyle.
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Yes, and America is not a very nice place to live if you are not among the successful. Letting people die because they can't pay their medical bills is not my idea of civlisation. To me America is like a pyramid scheme, it is constructed for the purpose of enriching the few at the expense of the masses.
But only the successful and happy appear in the movies and on TV, and just like a lottery everyone believes that it's their fate to be a winner!
Edited by Gusutafu on 16 November 2009 at 10:01pm
4 persons have voted this message useful
| mick33
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5925 days ago
1335 posts - 1632 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Finnish
Studies: Thai, Polish, Afrikaans, Hindi, Hungarian, Italian, Spanish, Swedish
| Message 141 of 249 16 November 2009 at 11:30pm | IP Logged |
Rikyu-san wrote:
"Non-culture"... I like that word. What is taking place in the Western world has more to do with non-culture than a sincere cultivation of character and spirit. The passion of the Western mind at its best was not driven by hedonism but some form of higher cultivation - enlightenment, not hedonistic darkness.
A Danish writer, the Bishop of Roskilde Jan Linhardt, once wrote that in today's (Western/Danish) world, vices have become virtues. "Greed is good". Is that really what we would like to export to the rest of the world?
In Denmark, young kids have watched the equivalent of "Britain's got Talent" and sincerely believe that "if you are not famous, you are nothing". Their desires, dreams, and motivations has been shaped towards 15 minutes of fame, Warhole-style. Superficial, of no value, but of great consequence to all of us. Is that really what we would like to export to the rest of the world?
We can put it very simply:
If we are to live in a world of wisdom, we have to live in accordance with the great wisdom traditions of the world.
They might need to be updated but that is achievable. I believe the Chinese model of "Confucian Capitalism" is important to study in this light.
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I think it's more "low culture" than "non-culture". Many people never think of making any effort to resist hedonism and to seek spiritual and intellectual enlightenment, but this is nothing new. What is different now is that bad taste and shallow materialism, (Britney Spears et al) the fallacy of instant gratification, and the belief that being famous actually matters are aggressively promoted worldwide as positive values we should all strive for, which is wrong. This is all part of what I would call cultural devolution which, as you point out, will continue to make ancient philosophies appear more appealing.
Edited by mick33 on 16 November 2009 at 11:38pm
1 person has voted this message useful
| Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 6440 days ago
4474 posts - 6726 votes
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese
| Message 142 of 249 16 November 2009 at 11:40pm | IP Logged |
mick33 wrote:
Rikyu-san wrote:
"Non-culture"... I like that word. What is taking place in the Western world has more to do with non-culture than a sincere cultivation of character and spirit. The passion of the Western mind at its best was not driven by hedonism but some form of higher cultivation - enlightenment, not hedonistic darkness.
A Danish writer, the Bishop of Roskilde Jan Linhardt, once wrote that in today's (Western/Danish) world, vices have become virtues. "Greed is good". Is that really what we would like to export to the rest of the world?
In Denmark, young kids have watched the equivalent of "Britain's got Talent" and sincerely believe that "if you are not famous, you are nothing". Their desires, dreams, and motivations has been shaped towards 15 minutes of fame, Warhole-style. Superficial, of no value, but of great consequence to all of us. Is that really what we would like to export to the rest of the world?
We can put it very simply:
If we are to live in a world of wisdom, we have to live in accordance with the great wisdom traditions of the world.
They might need to be updated but that is achievable. I believe the Chinese model of "Confucian Capitalism" is important to study in this light.
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I think it's more "low culture" than "non-culture". Many people never think of making any effort to resist hedonism and to seek spiritual and intellectual enlightenment, but this is nothing new. What is different now is that bad taste and shallow materialism, (Britney Spears et al) the fallacy of instant gratification, and the belief that being famous actually matters are aggressively promoted worldwide as positive values we should all strive for, which is wrong. This is all part of what I would call cultural devolution which, as you point out, will continue to make ancient philosophies appear more appealing. |
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What makes you think this is new? Ancient philosophy is filled with rants on the same topic.
1 person has voted this message useful
| mick33
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5925 days ago
1335 posts - 1632 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Finnish
Studies: Thai, Polish, Afrikaans, Hindi, Hungarian, Italian, Spanish, Swedish
| Message 143 of 249 16 November 2009 at 11:41pm | IP Logged |
cordelia0507 wrote:
...
However my new "image" on this site as some kind of extreme left-wing radical just because I don't love everything about USA / English language / consumerism had started to wear me down a bit.. |
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You might be surprised at the number of Americans who would actually agree with you on this
cordelia0507 wrote:
| I DO think that the ability of regular people to communicate across borders helps prevent wars though. It's much easier to whip up hatred or paranoia about another country if people have very little contact or understanding of that country. |
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I agree. Now, if only more people would realize this...
Edited by mick33 on 17 November 2009 at 12:01am
1 person has voted this message useful
| mick33
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5925 days ago
1335 posts - 1632 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Finnish
Studies: Thai, Polish, Afrikaans, Hindi, Hungarian, Italian, Spanish, Swedish
| Message 144 of 249 16 November 2009 at 11:50pm | IP Logged |
Volte wrote:
mick33 wrote:
Rikyu-san wrote:
"Non-culture"... I like that word. What is taking place in the Western world has more to do with non-culture than a sincere cultivation of character and spirit. The passion of the Western mind at its best was not driven by hedonism but some form of higher cultivation - enlightenment, not hedonistic darkness.
A Danish writer, the Bishop of Roskilde Jan Linhardt, once wrote that in today's (Western/Danish) world, vices have become virtues. "Greed is good". Is that really what we would like to export to the rest of the world?
In Denmark, young kids have watched the equivalent of "Britain's got Talent" and sincerely believe that "if you are not famous, you are nothing". Their desires, dreams, and motivations has been shaped towards 15 minutes of fame, Warhole-style. Superficial, of no value, but of great consequence to all of us. Is that really what we would like to export to the rest of the world?
We can put it very simply:
If we are to live in a world of wisdom, we have to live in accordance with the great wisdom traditions of the world.
They might need to be updated but that is achievable. I believe the Chinese model of "Confucian Capitalism" is important to study in this light.
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I think it's more "low culture" than "non-culture". Many people never think of making any effort to resist hedonism and to seek spiritual and intellectual enlightenment, but this is nothing new. What is different now is that bad taste and shallow materialism, (Britney Spears et al) the fallacy of instant gratification, and the belief that being famous actually matters are aggressively promoted worldwide as positive values we should all strive for, which is wrong. This is all part of what I would call cultural devolution which, as you point out, will continue to make ancient philosophies appear more appealing. |
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What makes you think this is new? Ancient philosophy is filled with rants on the same topic.
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The concepts, and concerns about them, aren't new, but the aggressive promotion of them is fairly recent.
Edited by mick33 on 17 November 2009 at 12:00am
2 persons have voted this message useful
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