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Gender-neutral pronoun for "he/she" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6015 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 65 of 74 18 November 2009 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
That´s almost what I said. My point was that what we usually say in English -- the "normative reference" -- is "they", not "he". The he/she debate ignores that and actually creates a false normative reference that is only then used as a basis for condemnation. The problem only ever existed in stuffy texts that were based on Latin norms, and if people didn't draw so much attention to it, everyone would be writing "they" by now -- notice how much more like spoken language writing has become in the last ten years now that we're reading each other's emails, rather than the "high" dialect of authors and newspaper editors.... On a slightly different note, a thought just struck me: If using masculine terms as the gender-neutral form is sexist, why is it now expected of us to call "actresses" by the masculine form "actor"? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5525 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 66 of 74 18 November 2009 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
Possibly because it is not obvious to the uniformed observer that actor is the male form. Unlike the 'his' in 'history', which stands out... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| minus273 Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5769 days ago 288 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Ancient Greek, Tibetan | Message 67 of 74 18 November 2009 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Once I read from Language Log, where some English-speaking guy (Victor Mair?) is amazed/shocked/whatever by the Chinese way that mental image about someone may be without gender information. Like talking about a scholar for half an hour and then ask "Is e male or female?"
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| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5673 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 68 of 74 18 November 2009 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yeah, my ex-girlfriend used to substitute "herstory" instead, claiming that "history" meant "his story" and therefore undermined womyn's (sic) history and confirmed that all history was inherently male dominated. The fact that the origin of the word "history" has absolutely nothing to do with "his" (other than coincidental spelling) did not impact her belief that there was an unspoken male conspiracy to undermine women through language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5525 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 69 of 74 18 November 2009 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
OK, so she understood that it was a coincidence, but perhaps believed that the continued use of words like history and they had a hidden purpose? You must have had some pretty interesting discussions! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JS-1 Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 5987 days ago 144 posts - 166 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Arabic (Egyptian), German, Japanese, Ancient Egyptian, Arabic (Written) | Message 70 of 74 20 November 2009 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
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This discussion reminds me of the first time a woman won an Irish presidential election,
and some half-wit threatened to sue the state, claiming the result was invalid because the constitution refers to the president as "he". 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5525 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 71 of 74 20 November 2009 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
Half-wit? That was brilliant! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| nuff_b Triglot Newbie Canada Joined 5554 days ago 1 posts - 1 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 72 of 74 23 November 2009 at 10:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Wow... this is intense. First off, apologies to the OP who probably just wanted a simple answer. I would say not to worry about it and use whatever you're most comfortable with, within reason of course. You might be the one we all follow in years to come.
It's obvious that there's a range of views, and pointless as they might be, I shall add mine. 1. I don't particularly think the English language needs a gender neutral pronoun. 2. I don't particularly have an issue with the use of 'one', and use it sometimes. 3. I freely use 'you' as both singular and plural. Some people might think the use of 'he' to refer to an unknown person is sexist, erroneous or unnatural. Perhaps. I don't know the social/generational histories of others, but for me growing up it was quite normal. I do agree that grammatically speaking it shouldn't be, but neither should many things. Let's assume it originated as a way to stifle women - I'm sure that's not the intention any more. As someone else mentioned, language evolves as a result of certain idiosyncrasies that are soon forgotten. In the same way, we don't think of the days of the week as Pagan worship, they're just names. Another argument was about women not wanting to be referred to as he. In a statement like 'to each his own', this person could be anyone. The fact that you, the reader, are a woman, does not make his statement wrong, because surely there is also a man out there to whom his own belongs, or whatever. If you have personally been addressed as a man, by all means correct the speaker, who will probably apologise and amend. What's wrong with using 'one'? If you're truly opposed, there is always the option of passive speech, at least in some contexts. On the you/you all/yous issue, while 'you all' etc. solves the singular/plural issue, I could very well be talking to a subset of 'you' that is not the same as 'all of you', in which case 'you all' is no more specific. Use what you will, I like to say 'you'. People usually understand. In the same vein, using plurals and 'they' works sometimes, and doesn't others. I'm too lazy to look up the sentence about 'reading their book', but if you make that sentence about 'The Qua'ran' or 'Don Quijote', it's not quite so simple. The language will in time regulate itself if these issues cause too many problems. People talking about logic and normalcy seem to forget the kind of species we are. Finally, I think Yoruba is another language with neutral 3rd person pronouns, having the same word for 'he', 'she', 'it' and the respectful form of 'you'... I think. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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