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FAQ-NL: Dutch

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tommus
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 Message 113 of 509
29 April 2010 at 10:30pm | IP Logged 
FAQ-NL: Is "was vergeten" correct in this sentence?

This sentence is from a story in De Telegraaf:

"Ze was de naam van haar hotel vergeten"

Here is the whole article:

http://www.telegraaf.nl/prive/6109394/__Moeder_Gerard_Jollin g_verdwaalt_in_Canada__.html?cid=rss

Why wouldn't it be "had ... vergeten"? Is this just a typo, or is it correct? "De naam was vergeten" seems ok.


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Vinbelgium
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 Message 114 of 509
29 April 2010 at 10:39pm | IP Logged 
It is correct. I usually say 'ben vergeten' instead of 'heb vergeten'. To me, 'heb/had vergeten' does not sound very natural.
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ReneeMona
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 Message 115 of 509
30 April 2010 at 3:22am | IP Logged 
When to use hebben or zijn with vergeten even confuses Dutch speakers every now and then. I couldn't think of an explanation either so I looked it up: http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/849/

Basically, hebben is (supposed to be) used when the "vergeten" refers to having forgotten to do something and zijn is used when vergeten refers to having forgotten a piece of information. So the sentence you mentioned is correct because the woman forgot a piece of information (the name of her hotel). A sentence in which you would use hebben is Piet heeft zijn schoenen vergeten (Piet forgot his shoes). However, many people would use zijn in this sentence so Piets is zijn schoenen vergeten also sounds fine. Basically the rule is: when in doubt, use zijn.
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tommus
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 Message 116 of 509
30 April 2010 at 4:00am | IP Logged 
Vinbelgium wrote:
It is correct. I usually say 'ben vergeten' instead of 'heb vergeten'. To me, 'heb/had vergeten' does not sound very natural.

ReneeMona wrote:
When to use hebben or zijn with vergeten even confuses Dutch speakers every now and then.

All this just when I thought I was starting to understand Dutch!

For a native English speaker to spontaneously use 'was' in a Dutch sentence like "Ze was de naam van haar hotel vergeten" would take about 20 years of learning and practice.

Thanks for the info. Looks like using 'zijn' is the safest approach. Is vergeten unique in this regard or are there many other similar challenges?


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JanKG
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 Message 117 of 509
30 April 2010 at 5:51am | IP Logged 
I would prefer not to use that rule. I am sure there is a real rule for that, which an contributor referred to indeed :
- ik ben vergeten: information, things
- ik heb vergeten iets te doen: acts, things one forgets to do

Sometimes it may not be perfectly clear, but this is the rule !!! I would not simply say that 'zijn' is mostly the best choice.

Edited by JanKG on 30 April 2010 at 5:52am
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Fasulye
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 Message 118 of 509
30 April 2010 at 8:06am | IP Logged 
tommus wrote:
FAQ-NL: Is "was vergeten" correct in this sentence?

This sentence is from a story in De Telegraaf:

"Ze was de naam van haar hotel vergeten"


In Dutch it's vergeten + zijn.

Examples:

Ik ben vergeten om boodschappen te doen.

Dat was ik helaas vergeten, sorry.

NB: Don't confuse this usage with German:

vergessen + haben

Vergeten + zijn is just a conjugation rule which you have to memorize.

Fasulye
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JanKG
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 Message 119 of 509
30 April 2010 at 2:48pm | IP Logged 
I don't understand why you put it that way. At the 'authoritative site' taaladvies.net (http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/849) a distinction is clearly made:

Beide vervoegingen zijn mogelijk, maar niet in alle gevallen door elkaar te gebruiken:
- als vergeten betekent 'verzuimen te doen (of mee te nemen)', heeft de vervoeging met hebben de voorkeur.
- als het betekent 'zich niet meer herinneren' of 'kwijt zijn', is de vervoeging met zijn gangbaar.

Het werkwoord vergeten kan in de voltooide tijd zowel met zijn als met hebben worden vervoegd. De vervoegingen zijn echter niet inwisselbaar. Als de gebeurtenis van het 'vergeten' vooropstaat, betekent dit werkwoord 'verzuimen te doen (of mee te nemen)', 'er niet aan denken'; in dit geval wordt vergeten bij voorkeur met hebben vervoegd. Anders dan uit Van Dale valt op te maken, wordt overigens ook in dit geval in toenemende mate de vervoeging met zijn gebruikt, vooral in gesproken taal:

(1a) Piet heeft vergeten zijn voetbalschoenen mee te brengen.

(1b) Piet is vergeten zijn voetbalschoenen mee te brengen.

Dit gebruik is niet voor iedereen aanvaardbaar.

Als het resultaat van het verzuim vooropstaat, heeft vergeten de betekenis 'kwijt zijn', 'niet meer weten' of 'zich niet meer herinneren' en is alleen de vervoeging met zijn goed mogelijk:

(2a) Alle middelbare-schoolkennis ben ik vergeten.

(2b) Alle middelbare-schoolkennis heb ik vergeten. (twijfelachtig)




Edited by JanKG on 30 April 2010 at 6:46pm
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ReneeMona
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 Message 120 of 509
30 April 2010 at 4:23pm | IP Logged 
tommus wrote:
All this just when I thought I was starting to understand Dutch!

For a native English speaker to spontaneously use 'was' in a Dutch sentence like "Ze was de naam van haar hotel vergeten" would take about 20 years of learning and practice.

Thanks for the info. Looks like using 'zijn' is the safest approach. Is vergeten unique in this regard or are there many other similar challenges?


Don't worry tommus, I've tried to think of another verb like this and I can't think of any so I'm pretty sure it's unique. Unless another native speaker can come up with one I've overlooked.

For what it's worth, I read the article and if this is the only thing you didn't understand about it I think you're already pretty competent in Dutch.


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