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Hardest concept to grasp in any language | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Miznia Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5355 days ago 37 posts - 42 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Cantonese, Korean, Thai, Vietnamese | Message 25 of 61 09 April 2010 at 1:34am | IP Logged | ||
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Should I take from this discussion, that Serbian expresses (in)definiteness using cases?
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7160 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes  20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 26 of 61 09 April 2010 at 1:45am | IP Logged | ||
The concept of definiteness exists in many languages but is expressed in different ways. Articles are just one way. Estonian and Finnish can express definiteness by using a different case on the direct object. Finnish can also use a change in word order to express definiteness. Serbo-Croatian masculine adjectives in nominative can express definiteness with the presence or absence of an ending "-i". nov đak VS. novi đak However a reliable relationship (be it proportional or inverse) between the presence of cases and articles doesn't really exist when one compares the grammar of languages from distinct phyla. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5452 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 27 of 61 09 April 2010 at 2:16am | IP Logged | ||
yep. :) the meaning is as clear as 'close the door' in English :). I've noticed that I'm probably making more article mistakes in writing than in speech. In writing, I just have enough time to overthink them :), while in speech I'm using more instinctively those structures that I have internalized through exposure (like, 'close the door' is now completely natural to me, but in many situations I just cannot decide to save my life should 'the' be there or not :) )... One of my professors is Serbian who left Serbia 25 years ago and since than has lived in English speaking countries only. She still complains about troubles with the article usage when she is doing some formal writing and has to think about that. Edited by Aineko on 09 April 2010 at 2:27am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| hvorki_ne Groupie Joined 5390 days ago 72 posts - 79 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Icelandic | Message 28 of 61 09 April 2010 at 2:31am | IP Logged | ||
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From what I know of Chinese- there's no declension or conjugation, and they use "adverbs" to specify.
I think the two most difficult things are things your language doesn't have. Sounds that we don't have in English are hard to master, and accusative/dative is difficult as well. I've never had a teacher explain it well- and I took both latin and German. I only understand it mildly thanks to wikipedia. Another problem is when grammar sounds close, but doesn't quite mesh up. Icelandic articles confuse me- they don't have indefinite but they do have definite- and they don't use them quite the same way as English. Also, conjunctions. Generally Icelandic conjunctions match up close enough, but then there are times where it veers off into confusing. For example, while we say "My name is ____. And you?" they use 'but you'. "Ég heitir _____. En þú?" ('en' being 'but' or 'than'), but 90% of the use of 'en' is the same as 'but' in English. I really don't get that... I think it's mostly idioms, as there's a phrase that literally means something like "Hesitation is same and loss", but translates "Hesitation is (the) same as a loss", and I think it's just an idiom thing. They also apparently have a word that no one knows where came from and is only used in one phrase. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5452 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 29 of 61 09 April 2010 at 2:42am | IP Logged | ||
Am I right or mistaken (since I obviously do not have a linguistic background in Serbian :D) when I think that '-i' does not necessarily express definiteness? for example, "I have a new computer." in Serbian is totally naturally expressed with both "Imam nov kompjuter." and "Imam novi kompjuter." However, if you would ask a question: "Which computer doesn't work?" "Koji kompjuter ne radi?" and want to say "The new one." natural answer would be: "Novi kompjuter ne radi." (rather than "Nov kompjuter ne radi.") yes, I don't think that cases and definiteness are connected. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7160 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 30 of 61 09 April 2010 at 2:51am | IP Logged | ||
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I always learned it that -i in novi represents definiteness in the nominative masculine. Even then it's only in certain instances as you've shown with your examples.
"Imam nov kompjuter" and "Imam novi kompjuter" are distinct (but allow for either use) since "nov(i) kompjuter" is in the accusative rather than "Nov(i) kompjuter je..." where "Nov(i) kompjuter" would be in nominative by virtue of being the sentence's subject. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5452 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 31 of 61 09 April 2010 at 3:16am | IP Logged | ||
oh, I see. thanks. so, Serbian has a sense of definiteness only in those expressions which could be considered an answer to the question "which one?" (koji?), and only in case of masculine adjectives... ( I think it's usage is pretty messed up in everyday speech - for example adjective "big" - "veliki", does have it's pair without '-i' "velik", but I don't know anyone who uses "velik" instead of "veliki" in their speech.) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| goosefrabbas Triglot Pro Member United States Joined 6372 days ago 393 posts - 475 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: German, Italian Personal Language Map | Message 32 of 61 09 April 2010 at 4:00am | IP Logged | ||
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So, this has nothing to do with Serbian, but the one thing that I've attempted to but never was able to understand is the aspect of Russian verbs... though I didn't use any particularly good sources to (try to) learn it.
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