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Esperanto’s benefit for language learners | ||
Tags: Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6476 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes  Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 49 of 78 15 April 2010 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
I'm not as much of a literature buff as you are; I mostly learn languages for the linguistic insights, also because of my job as a computational linguist developing a machine translation system. That being said, I usually recommend "Fajron sentas mi interne" by Ulrich Matthias because it's of good literary value while still being suitable as a first or second read for a language student. I also really enjoyed "La ŝtona urbo" by Anna Löwenstein because it's the kind of book I'd want to read in any language. On the other hand, I fail to understand the awesomeness of "La infana raso", which was proposed for the Nobel prize in literature. I'm probably not the best one to talk to about this. Splog, if this was just a matter of some people being wrong, I would not care. In fact, I prefer talking to people with different opinions rather than those who think the same as me on everything; it makes the world interesting. However, I have no tolerance for racism, tenacious prejudices or people looking for gratuitous fights. If I want to talk to people who think it's a waste of time to study languages other than for business reasons, I only have to step outside the door in my hometown. The same people may say that Swahili speakers don't have a culture, that the French are an arrogant bunch that nobody should want to associate with, and that the Maori language holds no insights for anyone. While growing up there I was berated left and right for this language-learning hobby of mine, some even threatened to burn my flashcards and books. A few people still won't cease berating me for not doing something useful with my time (like going out and getting drunk) even though studying exotic languages is arguably necessary for my job now. I really don't need this attitude when I'm relaxing online, and I definitely had expected better from this forum. There should be respect for every language and every culture here. Edited by Sprachprofi on 15 April 2010 at 7:37pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7150 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 50 of 78 15 April 2010 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Thanks for the kind words, dmaddock1, although I'm sure that not everyone would necessarily agree with you, and I'm well aware that I have just as much of a tendency to get caught up in the emotions of a debate as others. I do apologize to anyone I may have offended, either in my views or my choice of words.
For what it's worth, though, I suspect that if you ask about Esperanto literature, in what Caintearr has referred to as an "internal thread", you'll probably get helpful answers with little of the deadly pro et contra that's marked this thread. (Although once Sprachprofi gets her Esperanto board up and running, that would probably be the best place to put such questions.) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| mrhenrik Triglot Moderator Norway Joined 6085 days ago 482 posts - 658 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, French Personal Language Map | Message 51 of 78 15 April 2010 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
I wouldn't call not accepting evidence for, denying.
I haven't read the other thread, so I can't comment on what was posted there, but in this thread there has been very little hostility in my opinion. This is not a witch hunt against Esperanto - I would imagine the responses would be very similar had I posted the same thread praising any other language. What's happened in this thread is far from bullying. If you make big claims about something, of course there are people who will disagree with them. Just recall similar threads posted by people praising language learning methods - the negative replies are not the result of a witch hunt, it's people with conflicting opinions.
What is your point? It seemed clear to me that Cordelia was presuming this, especially considering her previous posts which have often been not too excited about English.
In this thread I would say yes - the original poster, although with the best intentions, posted in a very elitist and preaching style which certainly warranted replies disputing his opinions. I cannot see any posts in this thread which expresses contempt for Esperanto or it's culture - could you perhaps point them out for me? Discrimination like that could of course be a cause of disciplinary action, but I haven't seen any in this thread yet. I haven't seen a thread with the same number of negative replies, but then I have never seen a thread proclaiming the brilliance of a language and it's people in such a fashion either. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Delodephius Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member Yugoslavia Joined 5409 days ago 342 posts - 501 votes Speaks: Slovak*, Serbo-Croatian*, EnglishC1, Czech Studies: Russian, Japanese | Message 52 of 78 15 April 2010 at 8:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
There is a difference in definition of culture. In America culture and civilization and used in the same way, they are practically synonyms. In Continental Europe there is a sharp difference between culture and civilization. Basically, culture is consider a lower stage of civilization (a remnant of the colonial period i.e. Europeans had civilizations while others only had cultures). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| dmaddock1 Senior Member United States Joined 5439 days ago 174 posts - 426 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Esperanto, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 53 of 78 15 April 2010 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
I think you are right. I think part of the problem is that people have different ideas of what qualifies as "culture". Nevertheless, I don't see why some feel the need to remind others that they don't fit into their preferred definition. The first poster does not sound like a crazy zealot to me (to be fair, neither do the "critics"). And on a personal note, I know some crazy religious zealots and I would advise against participating in debates with them. You will never convince them they are wrong and they are biters. ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5675 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 54 of 78 15 April 2010 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
My PhD was (in part) about culture, and I came up with a definition that I was eventually happy with: "A culture is a set of deeply held beliefs around which a group of people have gelled." Somebody who shares those same beliefs will be attracted to and welcomed into the culture by the group members. Somebody who has conflicting beliefs threatens the unity of the group and will see the group as an "enemy" (and the feeling will be mutual). Importantly, you can't use logical debate to convince people from a different culture (i.e. deeply held beliefs) that you are right and they are wrong (or even that your own beliefs are just as valid as theirs). Culture clashes are emotionally-felt "injuries" to deeply held beliefs, even when the injury wasn't intended (the "outsider" doesn't have the same beliefs and so can't "feel your pain"). To get somebody "on your side" you have to get them to undergo a culture shift - and there is a whole long path for doing that, but slanging-matches, or even intellectual debate, are not part of that path. Edited by Splog on 15 April 2010 at 10:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Silvance5 Groupie United States Joined 5500 days ago 86 posts - 118 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, French | Message 55 of 78 16 April 2010 at 1:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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I would just like to add that Esperanto is now being taught in quite a few schools, even in the US, as it is a great gateway to other European languages.
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| Johntm Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5428 days ago 616 posts - 725 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 56 of 78 16 April 2010 at 5:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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