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Do you speak it like a native? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Kounotori Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5344 days ago 136 posts - 264 votes  Speaks: Finnish*, English, Russian Studies: Mandarin | Message 49 of 58 16 April 2010 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
...Aaand that's why I chose a pun as the Finnish phrase. Obscure cultural references won't make this thread fun for anyone. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| OlafP Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5435 days ago 261 posts - 667 votes Speaks: German*, French, English | Message 50 of 58 17 April 2010 at 12:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I agree that isolated quotes from TV shows, slang expressions, or the like seem to be pointless. The best demonstration of whether something is worth knowing would be a context that can be understood only if one recognises the cultural allusion. This is actually what I offered with the example of the newspaper headline "Ich wollt', ich würd' ägyptischer Präsident". The author of the article expresses his opinion with this headline by referring to a very well-known song with nonsensical lyrics: Ich wollt', ich wär ein Huhn. Ich hätt' nicht viel zu tun. Ich legt' des morgens nur ein Ei Und nachmittags wär ich frei. Ich brauchte nie mehr in's Büro. Ich wäre dämlich aber froh. Translation: I wish I was a hen. I wouldn't have much to do. I'd lay an egg every morning And in the afternoon I had time off. I'd never have to go to the office again. I'd be dim-witted but merry. You could expect an ironic text after a headline that refers to this song or misunderstand it completely if the reference is unknown to you. In the given example the author actually alludes to the absurdity and meaninglessness of the lyrics. Now, the crucial point is: how can you learn about such cultural references? Most people would answer: by massive exposure. I doubt that this works in every case. I was absolutely sure that Iversen would know the background of the sentence: "Ab heute wird zurückveräppelt." The original phrase seems to occur in every other documentary on 1933-45 in German language. Since he watches a lot of TV and is interested in history I find it hard to believe that he never heard it. But that's how it is. So if even massive amounts of exposure don't guarantee that you get to know quotes which every native speaker knows then maybe direct hints given by native speakers in a thread such as this one are more precious than it seems. As a result, it might not be very important whether anyone can solve these riddles but the solution given later must be a gem to anyone who wants to learn this particular language. If one native speaker thinks that at least a considerable part of the population of a country would recognise the allusion then it is worth knowing. That said, I think that puns file under a different category. They may require cultural knowledge beyond fluency but often they can be recognised by weird syntax or spelling, provided one knows what the correct syntax and spelling should look like. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 51 of 58 17 April 2010 at 1:02am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Instead of constantly raining on the parade with my criticisms about difficult cultural references, I would like to suggest a variation of this game with more linguistic content. All languages have metaphors and idioms that are very widely known but somewhat difficult for non-natives to understand. They can be found in good dictionaries but will require some work. For example in English the same word would be found in:
He doesn't know his ... from his elbow. Get your ... in gear and come down here. If you're not happy with the job, you can kiss my ... (very vulgar expression) This same word underlies the word "brown nose" in the following expression: He is always brown nosing the boss. In Québécois French, one could use the same French word in: Ça ne vaut pas de la ... Il est fou comme la ... Interestingly enough, the same word but pronounced slightly differently is used to bid "good luck" or "break a leg" to performers when they are about to go on stage. Since the word is a bit vulgar, if you really want to show off your literary culture, you could say "Je vous dis le mot de Cambronne." What are the two words? I'll give the answers presently. With Google, of course, it's relatively easy to find the answers, but you'll learn something. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 52 of 58 17 April 2010 at 1:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Especially if natives give the answer, instead of letting other non-natives explain whether or not they actually know it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 53 of 58 17 April 2010 at 2:05am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Actually, it's presumptuous to assume that the right answer must come from a native. As we have seen here, non-natives can sometimes pick up obscure cultural references. The only person who can surely confirm the right answer must be the author. And of course, this is what we have seen in this thread. Various people try to resolve the puzzle and the author confirms or gives the right answer. I still don't know if my interpretation of the "Steak, blé d'inde, patates" reference is correct. After seeing someone else trying, I decided to give it an educated guess with some help from Google, but I, like presumably everybody else, am still waiting for a confirmation. I think there are multiple right answers. I'd be curious to see what the author of the puzzle has to say. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 54 of 58 17 April 2010 at 2:25am | IP Logged | ||||||||
The reference was indeed from La Petite Vie. I've yet to meet a Québécois that doesn't know what that refers to. Here is a youtube video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQp7MQp7FbI 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6447 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 55 of 58 17 April 2010 at 3:49am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Rigorous or vigorous? In any case it's hard and piercing stuff. It's hard core politics, baby. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Kounotori Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5344 days ago 136 posts - 264 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Russian Studies: Mandarin | Message 56 of 58 17 April 2010 at 9:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Of course, that depends on the pun. Some of them can be difficult even while having normal syntax. Mine, for example, is completely linguistic, and doesn't require a deeper knowledge of Finnish (pop) culture. On the other hand, a pun like "Lenita tunnisti kaverinsa: Ai Risto!" (lit. Lenita recognized her friend: Oh, Risto!) that expects you to recognize the name of Lenita Airisto, an old Finnish media personality, wouldn't serve its purpose well because it really is obscure and requires "cultural knowledge beyond fluency", as you said. However, not all puns are like that; many of them only test the level of your vocabulary and knowledge of word senses (see the cowboy example earlier in this thread), which in my opinion is ideal for seeing if someone is at a C2 or better level. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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