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Romance Language Question | ||
Tags: Morphology | Romance Languages | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| quendidil Diglot Senior Member Singapore Joined 6352 days ago 126 posts - 142 votes  Speaks: Mandarin, English* Studies: Japanese | Message 9 of 20 16 April 2010 at 10:44am | IP Logged | ||
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From Latin to Romance in Sound Charts is a book completely devoted to this subject; you'll get the most benefit out of it if you know Latin though.
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| Alejeather Triglot Newbie United States Joined 5378 days ago 9 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Italian | Message 10 of 20 16 April 2010 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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Another pattern that surprised me is a correspondence between ll- and pi-, though there
are much fewer words that follow this pattern than have corresponding endings. Some examples would be: llover -- piovere lleno -- pieno llanura -- pianura But it's not that all words that start with ll- in Spanish start with pi- in Italian(ie: llamar == chiamare) but when I noticed this correspondence, I had a much easier time remembering the Italian word for rain! There are also a lot of cases where words that begin with an f- in other romance languages begin with an h- in Spanish. Again, this isn't a regular correspondence, but may help you be able to identify Italian words if you know their Spanish equivalents. hacer -- fare (While these two have more than just the first letter different, I wanted to include it because it is an incredibly common word that starts with an f- in other romance languages that I am aware of. fazer - Portuguese, fer - Catalan, faire - French) hierro (or fierro) -- ferro hambre -- fame hondo -- fondo harina -- farina Edited by Alejeather on 16 April 2010 at 12:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| NativeLanguage Octoglot Groupie United States nativlang.com Joined 5378 days ago 52 posts - 110 votes Speaks: French, Spanish, English*, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek, Portuguese, Catalan Studies: Japanese, Mayan languages, Irish | Message 11 of 20 16 April 2010 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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I apologize if this is a bit heavy on the linguistic terminolgy, but romance languages and linguistics are my passion.
The shared shape of the words you're noticing is due to their being cognates of a single late Latin word. The differences are due to regular sound change. In the first set of words, you're seeing some of the outcomes of Latin initial pl-. Latin, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese pluvere, llover (/j/), piovere (/pj/), chover clamare, llamar, chiamare (/kj/), chamar Same rules also apply to initial Latin cl-, and voiced counterparts bl- (*blondu > Italian biondo /'bjondo/), gl- (*glaciu > Italian ghiaccio /'gjattSo/), so we could say it's a "plosive + L" rule. In other words, it's the rule that determines the various outcomes (reflexes) of Latin words that start with a stop consonant followed by "l". The outcome of Latin f- IS a regular correspondence (that is, a regular sound change) that applies to non-learned words. Later medieval Spanish changed initial f > h (and eventually f > h > 0, or complete silence). The EXCEPTIONS are learned Latin words,so we have Spanish hurto 'theft' with a corresponding learned Spanish word furtivo 'furtive' (these can be seen as two separate cognates, one hurto deriving directly from old Vulgar Latin, the other furt- much later, from the academic & ecclesiastic acrolect). In fact, an Occitan dialect/language known as Gascon is undergoing the same change, and is in the intermediate stage in which initial h- is still aspirated (VLat *fumu > Gasc hum 'smoke'). Other Romance languages keep that initial f- (*fumu > Spanish humo, Gascon hum vs. Portuguese fumo, Catalan fum, Italian fumo, Sardinian fumu, Romanian fum, etc.). The key is, the correspondences you're pointing out are absolutely systemic in how they define the relations between Romance languages. For instance, how do the various languages above deal with final Vulgar Latin -u? What happens to intervocalic consonants (particularly voiceless plosives)? We can see the commonalities between words (especially when spelling obscures their differences) and also the way words changed within individual languages. Apply this at the level of grammar, or morphosyntax - what's similar about the verbs and nouns in the various Romance languages, for instance? Knowing that those, too, derived from Latin, what can we say about the common Vulgar Latin parent's noun and verb system? You'll find that the same type of analysis applies there, too. This isn't a pointless linguistic exercise. Identifying the patterns and the shape of the parent language behind them makes languages that initially look so different as Spanish, French and Italian a lot easier to learn in combination. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| alang Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7261 days ago 563 posts - 757 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 12 of 20 16 April 2010 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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The future written tense of Spanish words for example pensaré and volaré to the infinitive of Italian pensare and volare. Of course without the emphasized accent in Italian. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5493 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 13 of 20 17 April 2010 at 12:34am | IP Logged | ||
The future tense in modern Romance languages, at least in Catalan, French and Spanish, are developed from a periphrastic construction (infinitive + present indicative of HABERE): cantaré (< cantar he); cantarás (< cantar has); cantará (< cantar ha) … Edited by tractor on 17 April 2010 at 8:36am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Marc Frisch Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6705 days ago 1001 posts - 1169 votes Speaks: German*, French, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Persian, Tamil | Message 14 of 20 17 April 2010 at 1:55am | IP Logged | ||
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An incredibly good reference on this subject is:
Paul Teyssier - Comprendre les langues romanes 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| victor-osorio Diglot Groupie Venezuela Joined 5472 days ago 73 posts - 129 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian | Message 15 of 20 17 April 2010 at 2:59am | IP Logged | ||
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I can also add:
Spanish / Italian PL - PI Planeta - Pianeta Planta - Pianta J - SS Roja - Rossa Caja - Cassa UE - O Aeropuerto - Aeroporto Cuello - Collo CT - TT Traductor - Traduttore Doctor - Dottore Perfecto - Perfetto CUL - COL Minúsculo - Minuscolo Músculo - Muscolo IE - E Mie#da - Me#da Tienda - Tenda ABS - ASS Absurdo - Assurdo Absoluto - Assoluto Anyway, is good to remember that these patterns occur in certain words but not in all the words. Some Spanish speakers are said to speak something called "italgnolo"; that means, when they don't know a particular word in Italian they say that word in Spanish adapting it with patterns like this but lots of times they say a word that doesn't exists in Italian. For example: - Some guy knows that most words in Spanish that end with -cionar, like accionar and mencionar, are easily translated to Italian just changing the last part with -zionare, like azionare and menzionare. Then when he is going to say "estacionar" he says "stazionare". WRONG. Parcheggiare is the right word. Edited by victor-osorio on 17 April 2010 at 3:11am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| alang Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7261 days ago 563 posts - 757 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 16 of 20 23 April 2010 at 2:02am | IP Logged | ||
I just ordered the book from France, but I do not know French. When I learn French next year, I hope the book will help accelerate on the three others Portuguese, Italian and Romanian. Too bad there is not more languages in the Latin family. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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