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Schliemann method - has it been emulated? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Romanist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5273 days ago 261 posts - 366 votes  Studies: Italian | Message 17 of 30 19 July 2010 at 10:22am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I tend to agree with Doitsujin. Schliemann may have made a number of unsubstantiated claims about visiting Mecca in disguise, meeting the US President, etc. But as regards his linguistic accomplishments, the fact that he genuinely could read and write a large number of languages constitutes at least a prima facie case for his own account of learning them, I think.
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| tome Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5234 days ago 4 posts - 11 votes Speaks: English* | Message 18 of 30 19 July 2010 at 11:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Memory, like languages, is a skill that can be learned. If you were to read, for example, Harry Lorayne's page-a-minute memory book and his memory book, you would learn how to memorise a page of text in a minute. Using his methods, Schliemann's technique becomes much more viable. You could memorise a book in a couple of hours.
Having said that, becoming proficient at memorisation using these methods will probably take roughly the same amount of time as learning, say, French. Edited by tome on 19 July 2010 at 11:45am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6002 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 19 of 30 19 July 2010 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
That depends on what you mean by "prima facie" -- my understanding of the term is that it means that it's fair to assume the claim is true, which I do not consider to be the case here. His documented success in languages means that it's worth critically examining his methods, but his tendency to self-aggrandisement certainly advises against taking anything he says at face value. Even if we disregard this, it is entirely possible to be good at something and fail to understand why. The blurb for any immersive or pseudo-immersive course will have the quote "I learnt more in X days with course Y than in Z years of school!" The person quoted genuinely believes that they learned nothing in Z years of school and that this particular program built them up from nothing, rather than consolidating, building on and putting into practice what they already knew. It is impossible to know: A) Whether Schliemann was lying to the world and trying to make himself look good by claiming to have "the answer" to language learning. B) Whether Schliemann was lying to himself and blanking out all the other stuff he'd done before his single "wonder stage" of learning. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6263 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 20 of 30 19 July 2010 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
It is ultimately not resolvable whether Schliemann was totally truthful about his claims at mass memorising of text or not. Other areas of his life suggest that, although he had solid accomplishments, he could be a bit of a fantasist. I also have my doubts about whether somebody fantasising about going to Mecca would be compartmentalised enough to be totally honest about their achievements in language learning. Schliemann makes learning 20 pages of L2 text seem effortless. Was it really so easy for him? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Romanist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5273 days ago 261 posts - 366 votes Studies: Italian | Message 21 of 30 19 July 2010 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well, what I'm getting at is this: There is general agreement that Schliemann really could read and write Latin, Greek, and at least eight modern languages. And this being so, one would surely tend to assume that he was being frank and honest about his learning methods, unless there is specific evidence to the contrary? You (and William Camden) make the very fair point that:
I can see the force of this argument, but I do find it somewhat harsh. If a person is caught embellishing his or her life story in one particular area, does it necessarily follow that everything else he/she says should be presumed doubtful? I really don't know... There are those who have similarly tried to cast general aspersions on the late Michel Thomas because of the rather outlandish stories he told to his biographer. (For example, Thomas almost certainly invented the story about how he was caught and brutally interrogated during WWII by the notorious Gestapo officer Klaus Barbie, yet managed to bluff his way to freedom!!) However I for one do not believe we should conclude from this that there is a big question mark hanging over everything that Thomas claimed to have experienced or achieved during his long life. Things are rarely that simple and clear-cut IMO. But of course you are right: we can never know these things for sure. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6263 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 22 of 30 20 July 2010 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
In Schliemann's case, it was more than "one particular area". I had also mentioned Schliemann claiming to have been received by President Fillmore when he was still only a relatively obscure businessman in his late twenties, and there being no evidence this actually happened. He also claimed to have been shipwrecked with others at some point, I think off the Americas, and apparently going through all kinds of travails. (An earlier shipwreck, off the Netherlands, is well attested. After rescue and recovery, Schliemann found work in Amsterdam and later started his business career there.) While Payne believes the second shipwreck story, Traill treats it as a traveller's tale that is without supporting evidence. I think he jazzed his life up a bit and also liked to present himself as more important than he was. Feats of memory of the kind he claimed to be able to perform are interesting, but a lot of similar claims by other people don't seem to hold water. (As far as I have been able to discover, claims of "photographic memory" are considered by psychologists to be unfounded.) Perhaps Schliemann could recite the gist of 20 or so pages to a tutor, and in his romancing imagination later, this turned to perfect recall. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Romanist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5273 days ago 261 posts - 366 votes Studies: Italian | Message 23 of 30 20 July 2010 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well, the probable 'jazz-ups' are not specifically linked to his linguistic achievements. (Anyway, just because there is no surviving proof that he met the President, etc, it doesn't mean for sure that it didn't happen...) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ocius Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5581 days ago 48 posts - 77 votes Speaks: English*, German, Ancient Greek Studies: French, Latin, Sanskrit | Message 24 of 30 20 July 2010 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
While I'm almost certain he exaggerated his ability to memorize passages a bit, similar memory feats (reading a long passage several times and being able to recite it) are not all that extraordinary for a trained memory. As was mentioned earlier, part of being a good actor is knowing how one's memory works and knowing the tricks to retaining scripts verbatim even in high-stress situations (i.e. on stage). While memorizing "20 pages" word-for- word after only three readings seems a bit extraordinary, doing so in, say, 60 minutes or so, is something within the bounds of normal experience (if you can make it interesting and develop strong memory cues). Edit: Not all types of texts are equally easily to memorize, though that should go without saying. Say, for example, you wanted to memorize passages from the Bible. Well, if you attended a Christian school or had a religious family environment, attempting to memorize large passages would be much easier simply because one would already be familiar with the stories. I imagine in Schliemann's case, such examples from his school days involved memorization of texts which he had become familiar with in previous lessons. Further, memorizing things like the text of the Iliad or the Odyssey, for someone who is obsessively interested in classic legends, would probably be relatively easy. All that said, there are certain physiological conditions which allow for incredible feats of memory (i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Shereshevsky), though typically they develop unconsciously and, if they're strong enough to cause better-than-usual memory, also tend to have adverse side-effects in other areas of one's life. Edited by Ocius on 20 July 2010 at 7:25pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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