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Broken English, is it offensive to you? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| The Real CZ Senior Member United States Joined 5650 days ago 1069 posts - 1495 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 17 of 83 24 July 2010 at 10:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I used to really hate it (and I'm half Korean.) It didn't matter where the person was from or what race. I hated redneck English, Engrish, every broken form. All until I started learning languages myself, and making the same awful mistakes in those languages as foreigners make in English. I've become a lot more patient these days compared to just two years ago.
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| Derian Triglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5309 days ago 227 posts - 464 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Czech, French, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 18 of 83 24 July 2010 at 10:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
Oh, and thank you - apology accepted :) 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ruskivyetr Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5482 days ago 769 posts - 962 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Polish, Modern Hebrew | Message 19 of 83 24 July 2010 at 10:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
I assume your condescending tone was trying to insult me and all other English speakers who care that their native language is regarded as something that you can speak with a butchered grammar, and that it's ok. Your native language is not spoken by millions of people incorrectly, so I don't see how you would could "imagine how hard it must be". English is a language just like any other, and people should make an effort to speak it correctly. If they can't for reasons due to their native language being VASTLY different, then I'd be more than happy to help them, or just trudge along in a conversation. But when you have intelligent businessmen, whose jobs rely on communicating in English, butchering a language they should speak well, then I really don't have any qualms about being a bit angry that they have no respect for my native language. Edit: And so if it's not okay for me to want people to speak my mother tongue correctly, then I don't see why it's okay for other people to be condescending to English speakers who can't speak a foreign language without error. Edited by ruskivyetr on 24 July 2010 at 10:54pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| mrhenrik Triglot Moderator Norway Joined 6080 days ago 482 posts - 658 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, French Personal Language Map | Message 20 of 83 24 July 2010 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
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If they're businessmen, English is just another tool for them. There's no point for
them to learn English beyond the point at which they can do business in it. Anything beyond that is a waste of time. Remember that the threadstarter is presumably talking about English useage in Asia, where English isn't even spoken. If these were American businessmen I'd understand where you're coming from. English is grammatically simple in relation to other Indo-European languages (but it's ridiculously irregular and sounds nothing like how it's written). Compared to Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese - perhaps it's still "simple" but it's also an entirely different cup of tea. Perhaps a cup of coffee even. I'm not familiar with the Chinese languages or Korean, but Japanese even lacks things such as "the", often omits the subject/object of the sentence etc. This is the downside of English being the lingua franca of the world, and there's nothing any of us can do about it. Besides, as long as it's not in the US/UK I don't believe any of it's inhabitants should have a particular say. To use a strange analogy, it's like the toolbox makers complaining about people not using the whole package when all some people really need is a hammer.
This part confuses me a bit. Firstly, it's understandable that you'd want people to speak your mother tongue correctly, but I can't show the same understanding if you get annoyed by people who don't master it yet, or people who live outside anglophone countries and use it as a lingua franca. Has anyone in this thread been condescending to English speakers who can't speak a foreign language without error? I don't see the connection there. Edited by mrhenrik on 24 July 2010 at 11:21pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ruskivyetr Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5482 days ago 769 posts - 962 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Polish, Modern Hebrew | Message 21 of 83 24 July 2010 at 11:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm talking about grammar and syntax, not accent. I personally know how difficult it is to speak without an accent. If someone intends to use English as a tool, then he or she should make an attempt to use that tool correctly. If the average person who took English in school doesn't speak it correctly, then that's fine, it's not a "professional tool" for them. I assume this thread is about English in the professional world. If a professional is using English in the workplace, then they should speak it correctly. Relying on the tolerance of bad English is unprofessional and lazy. It's offensive because they ASSUME that it's okay to do that. And I have been ridiculed for speaking German with a few grammatical mistakes. My mother used to be harassed in France because she made a few grammatical mistakes here and there, in a NONPROFESSIONAL SETTING. Why is it ok for people to do that, and English speakers can't be a bit miffed that professionals address them in sloppy and incorrect English? 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5670 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 22 of 83 24 July 2010 at 11:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I used to feel the same type of irritation when I first moved to the USA and heard the butchering of English by even supposedly educated people. I am not just talking about accent, but about tolerance (even prevalence) of things that my English master would have beaten me for.
Every time I heard "I could care less" I would cringe. Every time I heard "If I was you" I shook my head at their poor education. Every time I heard "Octopi" used as a plural for "Octopus" I would become irritated at their confusion of Latin declension with words of Greek origin. In time, though, I came to realise that I shouldn't expect other people to follow rules just because they were important to me. I learned to relax and just accept that I was being uptight about things others simply don't care about. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| mrhenrik Triglot Moderator Norway Joined 6080 days ago 482 posts - 658 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, French Personal Language Map | Message 23 of 83 24 July 2010 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
Wouldn't this depend on what they need to use the tool for? Perhaps the thing I have in my hand is a super-high tech power transformator gizmo, but if I just need to knock this nail into this plank I am going to use it as a hammer. If you live in the US/UK for a long amount of time and deliberately neglect learning the language whilst relying on people's understanding of poor English, some annoyance is called for - but three Asian businessmen speaking three vastly different languages and stuttering along in English amongst themselves - what's wrong with this?
Now, this is a logical (?) error which often shows up in discussions (and I've caught myself doing it often) - none of us in this thread have ridiculed anyone for making mistakes. You're taking all the "broken English is fine"-people and placing them in the same box as the "don't dare to speak my language imperfectly"-people and talking to both as a whole. When doing that, half of the people are bound to be fairly confused half of the time. I would find it extremely rude if someone harassed me if I tried to make an effort to speak a language and I either used it as my main means of communication or there was no other alternative - whether the language was English, German, French any other language. There's nuances of course, I would also be impatient if someone stood at my bookstore at the front of a 10 meter long line looking through their Norwegian dictionary for the word "book" if they spoke fluent English, but that's another topic I guess. Short version: harassing someone for imperfectly speaking a language when they're blatantly learning it is rude. Also, if you're doing business in English in a non- English speaking country, be happy that the person speaks English at all. Edited by mrhenrik on 24 July 2010 at 11:31pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ruskivyetr Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5482 days ago 769 posts - 962 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Polish, Modern Hebrew | Message 24 of 83 24 July 2010 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
I never harass anyone for speaking English incorrectly. I would never. If someone is learning English, then they are obviously not using it as a professional tool, yet. And frankly if I were doing business in a non English speaking country, then I would learn the language impeccably before making an attempt at even starting to establish clientele. I guess it is a personal preference as to whether or not someone should buy the whole toolbox to use only a few of the tools, and whether or not doing so is offensive. I do not want to cause a fight or any conflict. I am just saddened at the bastardization of my native language, even by native speakers :( as mentioned in this thread. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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