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petrklic - Русский Язык (TAC 2011) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5557 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 49 of 68 18 August 2011 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Nice find! And a good example of where more stress leads to less. ;)
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| petrklic Triglot Pro Member Czech Republic Joined 5087 days ago 95 posts - 109 votes Speaks: Czech*, English, Russian Studies: Vietnamese Personal Language Map | Message 50 of 68 01 September 2011 at 1:11am | IP Logged | |||||
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This was supposed to be quick, but it somehow grew longer.
I'm reading Быков's Оправдание. This is the first book of a three-book cycle. The third book in the series, "Остромов, или Ученик чародея", won this year's National Bestseller award, which is how I learned about it. It's an interesting book, more philosophical than fiction, but both elements are present—you could call it an alternative history, I guess. It's about people who survived imprisonment and tortures of Stalin's regime, and how in fact there was a plan to and a reason for all that. But really it's about what makes you human, how people deal with pain, what's the value of truth, that sort of thing. The prose is very dense, but it's also very catchy, and as soon as I start reading, I can't stop until I read the whole chapter. This can take easily two to three hours, what with all the ankification that takes place. Which means that my vocabulary curves are inflecting back into progress—it's only today that I exhausted my unseen cards after several weeks of seeing twenty new. (Which is a hint that I should get back to reading again.) Another thing that has been occupying me lately, has been Church Slavonic. Not seriously at all, just to satisfy my wanderlust. There's quite a few texts over on orthlib, in pdf, and with wonderfully beautifully awesome typesetting that I absolutely adore. The way numbers are encoded in Church Slavonic in particular immediately caught my attention. To write numbers, you use the same Cyrillic alphabet that you use to write words. There are separate "digits" for hundreds, tens, and numbers below ten. Zero is missing. When encoding a number, you take these digits and simply put them together. For example, 222 would be written ск҃в. Zeroes are simply not written, you don't need them, since the system is not positional, even though the order from the biggest to the smallest is respected. There's a way to encode thousands and even bigger numbers—1111111 would be а҉а҈а⃝҂ара҃і. Here's hoping that your browser can display these decently, and that I got it right. That line above is called titlo, and is written over certain words of religious and non-obvious meaning. The example of the former would be ст҃а́гѡ, which is Church Slavonic for святого (note the deliberately omitted вя, that's because of the titlo; ѡ is read о). The example of the latter are numbers (wikipedia has an article, too). I added some number-cards to Anki, but that didn't work too well. So today, I wrote a script in python instead. This knows how to render a number based on these rules, and has a fancy exam mode, where it asks you series of numbers, shown in Arabic or Slavic numerals, and expects you to provide the counterpart. ... and that would be enough of my weird fascination with coding systems. (edit to clarify the C-S rendition of святого) Edited by petrklic on 01 September 2011 at 1:07pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6784 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 51 of 68 03 September 2011 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hey petrklic, I learned the alphabet last night. How long did it take you to read it
fluently? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| petrklic Triglot Pro Member Czech Republic Joined 5087 days ago 95 posts - 109 votes Speaks: Czech*, English, Russian Studies: Vietnamese Personal Language Map | Message 52 of 68 03 September 2011 at 11:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
That's not easy to tell, plus I don't remember anymore ;) I guess, about a month. Some time after that, you start mixing up Latin and Cyrillic scripts, which means that Cyrillic is deep enough in your brain. If you're anything like me, you'll be mixing up the "false friends" (у/u, р/r) about forever, but after about the first month or so, figuring out words is not painful anymore. After a bit more, maybe two or three months (more guesswork!), you'll be able to look at a word, and if it's short, like уже, рот, нож etc., you immediately know what the word is, even if you haven't seen it before. Actually knowing the words helps a great deal, though. I think it was at least a year, maybe even two, before I had big enough vocabulary, and had seen the words enough times, that I didn't have to concentrate on the reading itself much. I'm about to start my fourth year now, and I can read effortlessly most of the stuff on the web, and some easy fiction, but, well, it took me three years to get there. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6784 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 53 of 68 03 September 2011 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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You don't make it sound as easy as I had hoped :)
What about listening? Did you take a long time to "break through" and understand the spoken language? I don't know how Czech vs Polish is in this regard, but they probably have a similar starting point, no? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| petrklic Triglot Pro Member Czech Republic Joined 5087 days ago 95 posts - 109 votes Speaks: Czech*, English, Russian Studies: Vietnamese Personal Language Map | Message 54 of 68 04 September 2011 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
It really all depends on how you define fluency. Alphabet really isn't a big deal, but even when you learn it, reading isn't effortless until you've seen each word many, many times. That just takes a while.
I would guess so, yes. I am traditionally weak in listening, even in English, even in Czech in fact, weird as it sounds, so I may not be the right person to ask. But here goes. I think I sucked pretty badly for at least a couple months, when I'd just not have any input at all. When I started doing something with it, it would still be several months before I could understand a gist of what is said. From my old logs it seems that about a year after I started studying, I was semi-regularly watching Смешарики, a TV show for children. I presume that at that time, I still had trouble understanding, but was just after the breakthrough. I recommend listening to pop radio. They keep spinning the same stuff all the time, the greetings, the birthday congratulations, people bored at work or partying hard in подмосковье, that sort of thing, and then the lyrics are not exactly super inventive either. All this repetition is a bliss for learning the basics. The same with news, for when you're finally fed up with the awful, awful Russian pop. There are rock stations, too, but there you won't get so many songs all about the same thing ;) One problem with this approach is that rhythm and melody don't always respect the word stress. I remember inferring a wrong clue about stress of the word "радио", because on русское радио, in a jingle, they would say "ру́сское ра́дио̄". The long final "о" confused me and it was only much later that I realized that there's indeed initial stress, but it's not as prominent as the terminal length. My Czech background may be to blame here, Czech has fixed stress and variable length, so length is what my ear is trained to pick. There are opposite cases, of course. I could confidently argue with my Russian teacher that "звонить" has terminal stress, because I remembered Zemfira's "я чувствую как звенят твои нервы" (the word there is звенеть and not звонить, but the stress is the same, and I use it as a clue). All in all, I think that listening to the radio is very much worth it. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 55 of 68 04 September 2011 at 9:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Звонить, звенеть both have word final stress.
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| joanthemaid Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5471 days ago 483 posts - 559 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Russian, German | Message 56 of 68 05 September 2011 at 9:39am | IP Logged | |||||
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Petrklick, you're still as impressive as ever. I'm glad to see that you're reaching fluency and reading all these books. I didn't have much time lately, but I really need to get back into Russian (my Spanish is pretty much as good as it's going to get without spending significant time in Spain). Cheers!
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