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Michael K.’s Esperanto log | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Jinx Triglot Senior Member Germany reverbnation.co Joined 5699 days ago 1085 posts - 1879 votes  Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Catalan, Dutch, Esperanto, Croatian, Serbian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish, Yiddish | Message 17 of 74 24 April 2011 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | ||
Her two small mistakes were in regard to Esperanto and toki pona: 1. In the single example Esperanto sentence she gave, she omitted the accusative -n in a simple "The [blank] [blanks] the [blank]" type sentence. (And to preemptively answer any questions from other Esperantists, no, it was not a prepositional phrase.) Her excuse for this was that "most people don't use the accusative -n any more." I won't comment on that. 2. In regards to toki pona, her definition of it was "a language with only positive words." I wonder how she would then explain the presence of words in the very limited toki pona vocabulary which mean: bad, crazy, dirty, evil, hurt, etc.? Obviously these things are not earth-shaking problems, but they are both the kind of mistake that could be eradicated by a single hour of studying the language in question, so I was rather unimpressed. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5735 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 18 of 74 24 April 2011 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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In the book she did say that younger Esperantists (I guess younger native-speaking Esperantists?) leave off the end, such as -n, and shortening words like estas to stas or sta or something, so that I've read about. I'll read the Esperanto section again so I'll know exactly what she was saying.
In the book she said she studied Esperanto for 6 weeks and then went to an Esperanto conference and understood almost everything, until a Danish rockstar named Kimo, a native Esperanto speaker, gave a talk, and that's because he spoke too fast (and his accent was thick). She also earned her beginner language proficiency pin in Klingon. I don't think she even mentioned toki pona in her book at all (correction: there's one sentence) , except for perhaps in the list of conlangs. Those inaccuracies are small but she should have known better. Edit: Here are the two passages from the book. On pp.258-59 about Esperanto losing the -n: Languages like Esperanto have an advantage in that they are built from preexisting conventions-the general language habits of speakers of European languages. Esperanto itself does particularly well because it developed its own culture and community, and therefore has better defined conventions for what words mean and how they should be used. For example, the accusative -n ending used to mark the object of a verb is in the process of being lost. Speakers often leave it out-and joke about what a pain it is to remember to use it-and one study found that even native speakers don't use it all that consistently, even when the language of their home country has an accusative marker. But they always use it they say saluton, hello, or dankon, thanks. Those words were originally formed as the objects to verbs (as in "I wish you greetings" or "I give you thanks"); now they are just set phrases that happen to have the -n ending. But they are used so often, and their forms are so established by habit, or convention, that they are immune from the erosion of the grammatical marker they express. The study she refers to is called "Nativization Process in L1 Esperanto" and is in the Journal of Child Language from 2001. This is about irregularity in conlangs. On p. 286 there is one sentence about toki pona: Toki Pona, a language of simple syllables that uses only positive words, is intended to promote positive thinking, to be "fun and cute . . . one could almost imagine a race of little cartoon creatures speaking in Toki Pona ." Edited by Michael K. on 25 April 2011 at 11:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5735 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 19 of 74 30 April 2011 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm happy to say I didn't butcher the language in the 5th lesson of my correspondance course. I made 4 mistakes in 3 sentences, out of 20 sentences. I'll start to write more exercises and post them here for correction since I think I need more practice.
I also watched the rest of La Pasporto al la Tuta Mondo, although around the 5th or 6th lesson I started to have more difficulty understanding the language, so I'll start to watch the series from that point on. I was thinking about posting a review of the video series, but I don't think I'll do that now. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5735 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 20 of 74 07 May 2011 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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This week was uneventful as I didn't really study any Esperanto at all. I found a few new online sources in the past week, such as Helen Fryer's "Esperanto Teacher" and will have a closer look at that.
My enthusiasm is a little low right now, but I still really want to learn the language. My routine is going to get thrown off next week, since after the final exam next week (I'm taking one class this semester) I'm working for the summer away from home and will have possibly 2 or 3 roommates, one of whom may be my brother. After next week reliable Internet access as well as quietness and privacy may become an issue. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6445 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 21 of 74 07 May 2011 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | ||
Good luck. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5735 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 22 of 74 08 May 2011 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks, Volte.
I found out about Helen Fryer's book on that thread Fasulye started on free Esperanto resources. I've bookmarked a few other free, public domain Esperanto books, including a grammar, but I think I want to focus on Fryer's book. Of course, I want to do that correspondance course, which I'm halfway through right now, as well. I'm still very much interested in learning Esperanto, but I have some other things on my mind right now. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5735 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 23 of 74 13 May 2011 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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My semester's over now, so I'm out 'til August. That's the good news.
The bad news is that I don't know how often I'll be able to study anything except for one day a week until August, so Thursdays may be very busy. I want to finish the 10 lesson course. I'm on 6 now, which is more of a reading comprehension test than straight out asking for responses on vocabulary and grammar. Lesson 7 starts out with a vocabulary test, and then goes into a lesson. Those two lessons may take me awhile. Lessons 8-10 seem to basically be vocab and grammar, with a final exam at the end of lesson 10, if I recall correctly. Another issue is whether or not I want to study Esperanto with Spanish or just wait until I finish Assimil and then go on to Esperanto. I don't think studying two lnguages at the same time is a good idea for me. Two weeks without much Esperanto study is really disappointing me, and I hope I can do it at least weekly from now on. Daily would be preferred, but I don't think that's happening. Like I said in my Spanish log, I'll write again on Thursday or when I get a good internet connection. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Jinx Triglot Senior Member Germany reverbnation.co Joined 5699 days ago 1085 posts - 1879 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Catalan, Dutch, Esperanto, Croatian, Serbian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish, Yiddish | Message 24 of 74 15 May 2011 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | ||
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I hope you can keep going with Esperanto! It sounds like you were really making some progress. And it's such a useful language to lead into learning any romance language, such as Spanish, that it might be really helpful for you there too. Good luck figuring out your study situation this summer!
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