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The Ultimate Accelerated Learning Exp. ! | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5381 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 137 of 200 23 April 2011 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Can you please confirm that despite wanting to learn Russian for 2 years, you had no previous exposure or study of the language prior to doing this "experiment"? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6439 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 138 of 200 23 April 2011 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Why ask the question if you try to answer it for him? Also, does he actually know how long it would have otherwise took him to do what he did? If not, he doesn't really have a way to answer this meaningfully.
A more interesting question; I'd like to see what he says to it.
I'm also curious. Personally, I find how deeply I internalize information to be a key factor in retention. If I learn it shallowly, it's soon gone, whether I crammed it or learned it over the course of years.
Matter of definition, I suppose. I don't consider MT a particularly useful or deep set of information, but I think it's reasonable to call it 'large' - if you'd call a regular university class 'large', or any other body of information which takes several dozen hours. It's not the work of a year or lifetime, but I don't think 'large' is an entirely inaccurate term.
People don't generally have perfect retention of courses; he almost certainly missed things. Whether he missed more than otherwise is an interesting question, but one which I'm not confident he could answer. I find speed often helps; tiredness always hurts.
This experiment did not contrast doing MT quickly and slowly. He can believe what he reads other people say, or conclude that he didn't like studying this way, but he has absolutely no grounds to assume another way of doing it would work better based on this experiment.
You're asking leading questions, which the experiment explicitly didn't address. Doing one experiment doesn't magically make information appear about how it compares to other ways of doing things that the experimenter hasn't done. How much he's retained is an interesting question. Abazid: do you have a way to assess this? If so, would you answer it?
I don't find MT particularly useful for conversing with native speakers. What's the point of asking "What do you think of the economic and political situation in France?" when you won't understand the answer and can't reply anyhow? After 3 or 4 days of any method I'm aware of, people simply aren't going to get good results talking to native speakers. It's a useless assessment tool in this context, in my opinion. Edited by Volte on 23 April 2011 at 4:40pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5130 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 139 of 200 23 April 2011 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
He himself used the phrase "cutting learning time in half or even more", so I think it's a valid question and don't believe that it's leading. The fact that he may not be able to meaningfully answer is sort of the point and what much of the discussion has been about. R. == 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| HMS Senior Member England Joined 5107 days ago 143 posts - 256 votes Speaks: English* | Message 140 of 200 23 April 2011 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I must say, I was hoping for a little bit more interaction from the OP on this subject he started. He seems to have gone quiet. It would be nice for more feedback.
I will be compiling my list of apologies meanwhile. Edited by HMS on 23 April 2011 at 10:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6550 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 141 of 200 24 April 2011 at 5:10am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I think Solfrid Cristin was right. This forum is in dire need of smiley faces. Some little red hearts would be nice too. Ah well, what can one expect from someone who forgot the name of his dingy. As for this experiment, hopefully those of you who have been following it closely have learned something. This technique doesn't work very well. Sleep normally, with no electronic interference, and overall you will be much more efficient. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 142 of 200 24 April 2011 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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As this debate comes to a close and the dust is settling, I think it would be nice to conclude on a positive note. I think Abazid deserves kudos for daring to expose his experiment to the HTLAL community. A lot of us have pooh-poohed this contribution as another flash-in-the-pan kooky idea from some hyperventilating newbie hot on the trail of the silver bullet for instant language learning. That's not my opinion. I've said all along that I see the whole thing as an attempt to jump-start the learning process. I would not attempt to go without sleep for three days and try to learn a language at the same time. It's totally counterintuitive for me, but, what the heck, maybe it can work for some people.
My hope is that Abazid has not been scared off by some of the reactions here. There is no single way to learn a language. And we are all looking for more effective methods and tools. I do think that one can significantly reduce the time to learn a language. Brainwashing may not be the best method, but at least we've all learned something. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Abazid Diglot Newbie Egypt Joined 5017 days ago 16 posts - 23 votes Speaks: Arabic (Egyptian)*, English Studies: Russian | Message 143 of 200 25 April 2011 at 12:47am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I've already decided to move on and continue my experiments privately , My presumption was that this forum is VERY open-minded , But If I've known that I'd be wasting my time dealing with this type of BS arguments instead of focusing on what matters the most , I'd have definitely gone somewhere else or privately , Seeing that posting here has become more about dealing with BS hoops/arguments rather than the goals I originally had in mind , It's a waste of precious time and it cuts back on my productivity , Hence I decided to eliminate it . Anyways before I go , To those genuinely interested , I will summarize my own thoughts & my conclusions related to my experience with this type of immersion and I hope it will provide more insights and be of some help in your language learning endeavors . Thoughts : Originally , After reading about the exercise in 100 % Brain Course , I wanted to spend about 61 hours studying any new language to see if the effect of brainwashing is for real in relation to language learning , As I already have a solid background in NLP,Hypnosis & Psychology and their use in Mind Control , I knew it was done many times before for coercive uses , Hence possible anyhow . A very important element was missing , Which was the instructors , In my own mind I'd say they were a very important for various reasons : First of all , I knew nothing about the language , Which was the reason it took me a while to start , Because I had to research what would be the best material that would fit in with my 61 hour arrangement and at the same time flow with "Brainwashing" , meaning that the thinking material should be in the beginning as I'd have more concentration and the more "Memorize" type of material in the end supposedly at the time when the brainwashing effect would start . Then the realization that the presence of 3-6 instructors along with many forms of visual stimulation would make the experience easier to go through and endure , The Auditory channel according to what I know is about 38 % Only , Hence it was going to be harder . And so I realized that this is a new type of experiment totally different from the original , But the best one could do to mimick it if he's on his own . After deciding on MT & Pimsleur and realizing that I'd need about 81 hours to finish both (forgetting to put the pauses between each exercise in mind for each program ) . I started with a certain aim in mind , I wanted to understand what was said in a Russian Documentary which felt quite advanced , And see if I could talk in Russian easily like the exercise claimed . On first day , I failed to continue after 25 hours , It was almost impossible at least for me even though . What would may count as very light Brainwashing(AKA BW) on that first day would be the listening of a couple of tracks for many times , As understanding of these tracks became solid next time . I'm assuming that this may be BW before the 61 hour period because I realized that every single body's endurance & concentration stamina is different from every body else . Same happened 2nd time after 38 hours(And it was only MT now) , I couldn't endure anymore , And went into passive listening mode for 2-3 hours in the Vocab Cd , That could also count as brainwashing , Next time in the 3rd day I understood the CD really well . Was that BW or just the return of my own concentration , I'm not completely sure , I did feel a very familiar feeling when listening to these last CDs and an ease when I used the vocab , Thats all. Since I've failed to undergo more than 2-3 hours in that Listen only BW state of deteriorated concentration , I can't say for sure if Brainwashing is effective because I would need to spend more time in that state and preferably the instructors , But I'm quite sure that doing this on your own with Audio only is very hard and take a lot of effort . My goal of understanding the documentary (listening skills) didn't happen , But I was capable of listening to many patterns that I've learned , But lots of new vocabulary that I dunno yet (it's a doc about science & parapsychology) , Meaning that I still need more training . In terms of speaking , In comparison with my initial skills ,All I can say now is that I'm quite satisfied with my progress in 3 days , That's all . In regards to results & retention , Here are some of my conclusions : First of all , Since I'm not sure about the BW effect till now , I advise against doing this until you reach such state of tiredness without sleep , If you start your concentration deteriorating , Take a nap or sleep , Whateever works for you , And continue . What I mainly took from this was "Amazing" at least to me , Because I always thought a Language is a very hard thing to go through , And the idea of 3 days to get ANY where with any language is just too good to be true ,Making the initial start with language learning very tough , Seeing that in 3 days(Whether BW worked or not) I did this and was capable of reading & writing lightly in Russian , And talking & listening as I translated many of the words that came up in my mind in English , It made me realize that with enough focus & dedicated effort I could go through any language and maybe with smart, intensive ,curious & playful type of learning , I could reach mastery in less time , And that was the best thing about this ,Yet at the same time I felt really bad because I realized HOW MUCH TIME one wastes all of his life and what could one achieve if he sets his mind to . In regards of Retention , What happened was very inspiring to me : From what I've read and researched in regards to memory , I've found that retention completely has to do with forming associations/connections and then going through them many times seems to reinforce them more & more to the point that they're retained for a long time , Here's an interesting quote from the PMemory Manual based on Neurophysiology on the the subject of Electric Memory :
Basically , If you go normally through a course in Chunks in this case for a week for example , If you actually DO persist in the schedule you set without any procrastination , And use the material you learned and deepen the connections more & more , And then continue on with the lessons adding more & more layers of complexity to the foundations , Even though it needs a "LOT" of time ,dedication & self-discipline , Everybody know that this the most efficient way even though it's slower , And also like mentioned in the above quote leads to retention due to constant activation . In my experience most of people though have a problem with following through with most of courses and just buying them gives a sense of accomplishment without even starting or stopping in the middle..etc , Which was also my own experience with some courses . The inspiring part of this in relation to retention was this . The format of Michel Thomas courses feel completely like a journey of forming associations or more like a mnemonic journey , Where you're making a house , A mental matrix of mnemonic associations . And so when I went through this building process , All in one sitting , One after the other , Something clicked . When I went through the foundations , The initial associations I made were constantly getting activated and reinforced so many times , That they came up so naturally . But at the end of the foundations I felt a little worried that I might lose them , Hence thought maybe I should listen to it once more to solidify it , But thought that if throughout the foundations my associations were reinforced , The Advanced would definitely reinforce it even more . When I went through the Advanced I was right , Even though the EXPANSION of grammatical structures was rather too much , All of the foundation material were reinforced to the point that they felt like child play and already part of my memory , And then I felt the same with the expansion in the Advanced course , Will I lose it ? So I went with the Vocab , This one cemented almost everything in the Advanced , And expanded on it even more , Adding like they say "Decoration" to the solid house . But I felt like I needed to "Only" listen to the Vocab once more to solidify it which I'm currently doing and adding more advanced material . It seems that the more you get your feet wet and expose yourself to more new material and use more of what you know and expand , The more you reinforce what you know , This is why in my own opinion makes doing this very effective if you're following a program that uses lots of associations and reinforces them constantly like MT , And would be great as a start as long as you follow through with the normal method of chunking . I consider doing this is more like an effective form of a crash course . Summary on Retention: Going with the normal way of chunking is the most efficient yet WAY slower and needs strong self-discipline , It activates associations on an expanded period of time hence makes the process of retention last longer & with ease with constant use of the material , Yet if you miss out on activation/reinforcement , You could lose a lot of your own work and you'll need to go through material once again . While this form of intensive crash coursing with effective mnemonic material , Creates a ton of associations in WAY less time (YET it's also over-whelming , ain't easy and needs strong focus) , Yet with the building block approach in record time , All these associations are reinforced too many times that they become solidified and available naturally in one's memory , And allow the progression into more and more advanced material . Conclusion : I can't say for sure if Brainwashing was the case here , That would need more experiments with this hopefully with 3-6 instructors , But I'm definitely taking what I've learned from this with me, Esp. if I want to break through a lot of foreign material fast , And along with Photoreading & PMemory methods , It would become even more effective . Thats all Abazid @aerozypln Whats your email , So we could talk about that method in more detail ? ( I dun have Skype) Edited by Abazid on 25 April 2011 at 1:13am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| tbone Diglot Groupie United States Joined 4991 days ago 92 posts - 132 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 144 of 200 25 April 2011 at 1:09am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thanks for sharing your adventure with us, Abazid. Sorry you ran afoul of the experts. You gave me some good
ideas and info about MT Russian and Pimsleur Russian that I didn't know. I guess all of us self-experimenters will keep to ourselves for a while. Good luck with your investigations into language acquisition. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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