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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| zhanglong Senior Member United States Joined 4927 days ago 322 posts - 427 votes  Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 9 of 169 30 May 2011 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Two questions that I'll ask the polyglot community:
1) What level of language proficiency is considered "fluent"? 2) How can you avoid mixing up two similar languages that you're learning at the same time? Is it better to learn one well and then the other or to learn both at the same time? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| hkboy Groupie Hong Kong Joined 5674 days ago 65 posts - 86 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Cantonese, Mandarin | Message 10 of 169 31 May 2011 at 1:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hi zhanglong,
I just wanted to say good luck with your studies. Now as I'm writing this I can't remember if you said you are studying both languages everyday. I started with FSI Cantonese when I first started. I then did Pimsleur and it was super easy after finishing the FSI "bootcamp". Good luck and I can't wait to read about your progress. Edited by hkboy on 02 June 2011 at 12:08am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| zhanglong Senior Member United States Joined 4927 days ago 322 posts - 427 votes Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 11 of 169 31 May 2011 at 5:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thank you, hkboy.
I just listened to Pimsleur Chapter 01. It seemed easy enough. Later I will transcribe the dialogue and determine what vocabulary and grammatical rules does the dialogue follow. I also listened to an hour of Cantonese radio. I only recognized two words: 朋友 pang4 jau5 廣州 gwong2 zau1 Two words in one hour... My Cantonese career is off to a fine start! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6580 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 12 of 169 31 May 2011 at 7:22am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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My experiences in learning Mandarin and Cantonese: I studied Mandarin for about two years (technically it was more, but most of the time I was on a very on-off relationship with it and took pauses of several months). The best tool I found was ChinesePod, which took me from beginner up to able to engage native materials. For learning Mandarin I heartily recommend it. I spent a year in Foshan (a subway ride away from Guangzhou) studying martial arts. During this time, I obviously got a lot of speaking training and I worked a lot on reading, though it was still painfully slow. I watched a lot of kung fu dramas, meaning I learned a lot of old-fashioned speech, but I got the everyday speech from just speaking the language every day (I was already at a point where I could get by completely in Mandarin when I got there). My current level allows me to read books pretty comfortably, but I still look up a word every couple of sentences. Conversations about non-technical subjects is effortless.
Cantonese: I didn't start learning Canto until well after half of my year in Foshan was over. Luckily, by then I had a firm base in Mandarin. I had by then acquired a girlfriend from Hong Kong and I learned most of my early Canto through text messaging (so much for Cantonese not being a written language). This was very helpful, as I could look up pronunciations and grammar slowly. I used CantoNotes on my iPhone to write Cantonese using Jyutping and it and CantoDict online to look up pronunciations and words. CantoDict is invaluable to the Cantonese learner, but you need to learn traditional characters to get the most out of it. Learning after this early period has been done partly through text messages, partly through speaking with my girlfriend and partly through Hong Kong movies. There's a web page with scripts of Stephen Chow movies that I used a lot, since it allowed me to see exactly what people in the movie were saying, character by character. Again with the written Cantonese. My current Canto level is pretty decent for daily conversation (all my conversation with my girlfriend is in Cantonese) and reading is ok for text message type text. I'm working with Cantonese rap music and Cantonese Wikipedia at the moment, trying to expand my vocabulary. As to your questions: 1) What level of language proficiency is considered "fluent"? There is no general accepted definition, which is why we try to avoid that word on these forums, as it just creates confusion and accusations about lying about one's abilities. Just avoid it and use more specific descriptions of ability or CEFR levels or the like. 2) How can you avoid mixing up two similar languages that you're learning at the same time? Is it better to learn one well and then the other or to learn both at the same time? There's a lot written about this and you can probably find some info if you search on "interference" on these forums, which is the term we usually use to describe this phenomenon. Many seem to agree that having a good foundation in the one before starting on the other is the best approach, but I've seen a few people claiming that doing both at the same time and trying to clearly mark which one is being used at which time works for them. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| smallwhite Pentaglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5306 days ago 537 posts - 1045 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish | Message 13 of 169 31 May 2011 at 8:19am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Don't they speak Cantonese in Guangzhou? Have you discussed with the locals which of Mandarin and Cantonese is more urgent for your stay or for your work?
Good luck! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| zhanglong Senior Member United States Joined 4927 days ago 322 posts - 427 votes Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 14 of 169 31 May 2011 at 11:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well. I've discovered some things very quickly in the past few hours in Guangzhou.
While this place may have been the center of Cantonese, there are so many people from outside of Guangdong province that have emigrated here for business reasons, that it's not easy to find people who will understand Cantonese. In a completely unscientific poll of ten people I met and spoke to today, three were from Guangdong province, only one of whom was born in Guangzhou. The other seven were from Hunan Province, Harbin, Wuhan, Sichuan Province, etc. In other words, the ten people all spoke Mandarin, but only three could speak Cantonese. Of the seven who were from outside of Guangzhou, only a few said they could understand Cantonese, but none of them could speak it. They said it was too hard to learn. Now I doubt that a native Mandarin speaker could not learn Cantonese if that were their goal, but there seems to be no interest in it whatsoever. I've yet to find a university here that teaches it. They all teach Mandarin. Larry Salibra, an expat living here in Guangzhou, wrote an interesting blog entry about it called "7 Reasons Cantonese is Dying & Mandarin is King." http://larrysalibra.com/2010/02/25/7-reasons-cantonese-is-dy ing-mandarin-is-king/ In summary, Mandarin is perceived as the wave of the future, the prestige language, the language of political power and economic clout. So now, I have to reassess my goal. While I can still find native Cantonese speakers here, they can all speak Mandarin as well. I just saw Professor Arguelles talk about sequential versus simultaneous language learning; he opined that if the two languages are closely related, it is best to learn one and then learn the other. That seems to make sense. I won't make any decisions based upon one day of traveling, but perhaps Level 2 Cantonese speaking is more than enough for what I need to do here, and I should best direct my efforts to mastering Mandarin. If I want to learn Cantonese, it appears as if Hong Kong is the best immersive environment. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| zhanglong Senior Member United States Joined 4927 days ago 322 posts - 427 votes Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 15 of 169 31 May 2011 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Just finished Pimsleur 02. Again, I had to rely on Mandarin with the shopkeepers, but I did find that the 711 counter people will speak Cantonese to each other and Mandarin or very limited English to their customers.
It seems as if non-Cantonese speakers are an occupying force... Learned a good construction: 我唔係好識聽. ngo5 m4 hai6 hou2 sik1 teng1. I not good able listen. This is currently my motto, but not for long! I think I will listen to more than one Pimsleur a day as time permits, and learn the material as best as I can before I proceed to FSI or Teach Yourself Cantonese. Each day I have the opportunity to take this language into the field, so I want to know a very limited number of constructions well, rather than have 10,000 words I don't know how to use. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6580 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 16 of 169 01 June 2011 at 7:15am | IP Logged | ||||||||
This attitude is very common. Few Chinese will bother to learn the language of the city they move to. We talked in the other thread about how some British expats don't learn the local language. It's much worse with the Chinese moving within China. The "too hard to learn" excuse is common and most speakers of Cantonese believe it, too. In truth, Cantonese is of course one of the easiest languages in the world if your native language is another Chinese language; certainly much, much easier than English.
Cantonese is not a language to learn for practical reasons unless you're living in Hong Kong. In Mainland china, Mandarin is everywhere and the other languages are fading slowly. Two things, however: First of all, there are still many older people in Guangdong (60+) whose Mandarin is shaky or nonexistant. Second, Cantonese is the most wonderful language in the world to learn. It's vivid, lively, juicy and funny. Compared to the regulated, standardized Mandarin (especially as it is spoken in non-Mandarin areas), Cantonese is a wonder of slang, old sayings, puns and swears. For me, even though Mandarin is certainly more useful, Cantonese is the language I love.
Written Cantonese, and in traditional characters to boot! Good job! 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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