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IQ needed to be a hyperglot | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots |  | |
| Magnum Bilingual Triglot Retired Moderator Pro Member United States Joined 7116 days ago 359 posts - 353 votes  Speaks: English*, Serbian*, French Studies: German Personal Language Map | Message 9 of 164 04 May 2006 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
There are many kinds of savants that are developmentally retarded. It is too easy to try and correlate one statistic to a trait, and claim causality. For all we know, IQ could have nothing to do with language learning. Maybe it is more of a right brain / left brain question? Maybe it has to do with the kinds of experiances a young child has- is one child exposed to more sounds whereas another is not? I'll give an example. I know a guy who spent $2000 on a stereo system. He is not rich, it took him a long time to save. When he got it, he put in a CD and said "Can you hear how much clearer the music is". I could not tell the difference between it and a $100 stereo. Yet to him, it was like day and night. Since he has a better ear, would that make it easier for him to learn Mandarin? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6942 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 10 of 164 05 May 2006 at 11:42am | IP Logged | |||||
Then again, it might. Conventional wisdom would regard the ability to master 10 languages as an adult a sign of high overall intelligence (although not necessarily wisdom), and barring possible idiot savant cases, it seems quite plausible. Some IQ-related self-selection unrelated to the language-learning abilities may take place of course - multiple language-learning is a pretty nerdy activity, and folks who are just happy to live their lives may never develop an interest in it regardless of their language-learning abilities. Also, the vast majority of language-learning materials are written in a way that will fry the brain of anyone not used to slogging through fairly technical explanations, so we may lose some potential "low-IQ" linguistic talent due to that as well. In fact, sigiloso's idea was not entirely confined to the IQ score, but placed extra emphasis on the verbal skills in one's native language. This correlation is also not implausible, but the tests one takes in one's native language typically look at one's knowledge of the more learned vocabulary and the ability to decipher messy syntax. From what I've seen, ahem, ahem, those with proclivity towards convoluted and superfluous verbiage, especially of the written variety, in their native language will "successfully" transfer it to the foreign tongues they learn. What I am not so sure about is how well this correlates with the ability to speak these same foreign tongues smoothly and in a native-like manner - one can use fancy words and complex syntax in speech and writing, and yet not do all that well with sounding native even while shopping in a grocery store. Conversely, I've met some immigrants who were quite poor academically even at the high school level, but who have mastered spoken English in a native-like manner, even if it's not the kind of English that would make a professor of English Literature proud. Of course, such people will not have learned English from books. And then there are the two sexes, of course. In his "How to Become a Polyglot" Spivak talks about women generally being more verbal and less intersted in grammar, whereas men are more likely to want the formal stuff while learning a language. This could well introduce a gender bias into the ranks of polyglots that is also not ability-related - if what Spivak says is true, a woman would have an easier time just picking up the language, but the rub is that she would need to live in the country where it's spoken, and not many people get to live in 10 countries or have money to hire tutors for 10 languages, whereas to learn a language from afar may be easier for someone who is more used to slogging through grammar books. Edited by frenkeld on 05 May 2006 at 12:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Niall Gallagher Groupie Ireland Joined 7134 days ago 81 posts - 81 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 11 of 164 05 May 2006 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
To quote Lao Tzu: "The wise are not learned; the learned are not wise." In effect, self-discipline and hard work are ultimately what's needed to become a hyperglot; having a higher IQ just means getting there faster. Not to mention language learning becoming "easier" after a couple, and one's IQ increasing as a result of this. Mind you, wouldn't much like to know so many that maintaining them becomes a chore rather than enjoyable, but the flip-side is wanderlust, which can be all too tempting to the curious mind. Edited by Niall Gallagher on 05 May 2006 at 12:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6856 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 12 of 164 05 May 2006 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
So I take it you've never been to Curaçao. What is it that makes one a hyperglot? That he speaks several languages or that he boasts about it? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| wetnose Groupie United States Joined 6977 days ago 90 posts - 98 votes Studies: Mandarin, English* Studies: Japanese | Message 13 of 164 06 May 2006 at 9:54am | IP Logged | |||||
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Hello sigiloso,
First I'd like to say welcome to the forum! I'm very impressed with the number of languages you study. If you've been studying intelligence, then you know all the problems we have defining and measuring it. Personally, I can't see too much of a correlation between IQ [as a general intelligence measure] and polyglot ability. We also don't fundamentally understand how the brain works and learns. Then there's all the other factors that go into the mix. Here on this forum, most of us have undergone the paradigm shift from "polyglots are rare geniuses; learning a new language in near impossible to do well/past a certain age" to "it takes correct study, effort, etc, to learn a language well". We're basically innoculated from the mental frame you've gave as examples in your post - "I forgot..." "I tried to learnd chinese, and I failed. ERGO: learning Chinese is impossible". "How can possibly Ziad Fazah know soooo many languages?" I think you'll find we're much more optimistic in outlook than your average language learner. I still don't know what 'g' is, but the most intriguing part of your post is the idea that intelligence tends to correlate positively with verbal fluidity and semantic distinction. Sure, we see this in everyday life, but it's not a rule. The first thing I think of here is the Sokal Affair. Regarding verbal fluidity and nuance, I'd argue that the proficiency you can achieve in a language is primarily limited to the amount and level of contact you are able to maintain with it. And what, for example, of the sort of nuances an autodidact infers in his/her own language? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Eidolio Bilingual Octoglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 6860 days ago 159 posts - 164 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Dutch*, Flemish*, French, English, Latin, Ancient Greek, Italian, Greek | Message 14 of 164 10 May 2006 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I think it's true that IQ is correlated with your ability to learn languages. That's all what IQ is about: "how quickly can you learn something new?".
Of course you can't learn a language without any studying at all, but intelligence is involved. This becomes clear when you're learning a language in group. After two lessons, you can already tell who are going to be the best students. After 4 lessons, some people still struggle with the conjugation of the verb "to be" while others can make some easy sentences without having to think hard about it - even if they didn't practice outside class. Of course, people who've got more difficulties still can manage to learn a language, but they'll have to spend more time on practicing. I don't deny that there are other factors interfering with IQ and learning languages, but IQ really is important. When a good test points out that someone's IQ is about 140, this means that this person is a very quick learner who understands things more easily than the average person. These people really do exist and I don't see why they shouldn't be faster in learning languages. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6856 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 15 of 164 10 May 2006 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
I don't know how fair of a statement this is. I think it would be more fair to say that we all possess different aptitudes. I have taken group language classes before, with some otherwise brilliant folks who had a terrible time. It was as if their own intelligence got in the way of "hearing" the language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Eidolio Bilingual Octoglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 6860 days ago 159 posts - 164 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Dutch*, Flemish*, French, English, Latin, Ancient Greek, Italian, Greek | Message 16 of 164 10 May 2006 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Of course this is possible. My point is just that some people are more gifted for learning languages.
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