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Tags: Memory | Vocabulary learning | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| Josh Cohen Newbie United States mnemotechnics.org/ Joined 4877 days ago 35 posts - 63 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Portuguese, Esperanto | Message 49 of 89 25 July 2011 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I'm not familiar with his method. I'm only referring to a specific mnemonic technique that I posted examples of, above.
Mnemonics don't necessarily cause you to learn the wrong way, and I haven't found it to be a problem at all. I've already explained how they actually reinforce memory of grammar. Here is a study on one type of mnemonic technique using keywords: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/xlm/1/2/126/ Using mnemonic techniques, I learned how to read Cyrillic script in fewer than 10 minutes the other day while on the ride to Skopje. When I see a chair stuck to the ceiling (Ч) I know it's "CHair". When I see Jacques Cousteau doing jumping jacks (Ж), I know it's Jacques. When I see "Ѕ", I picture an aDZe scooping out the side of the letter. By the time I got to the border I could basically sound out the road signs. There are many applications...
No problem -- we don't have to agree. :)
That doesn't make sense to me. There is no difference in that regard between sitting down and saying: "comida means food in Spanish, comida means food in Spanish, comida means food in Spanish, comida means food in Spanish..." (x30) from saying "comida means food" once and creating a visual image of food to place in the feminine-noun section of your Spanish memory palace. If you later find that the meaning is more nuanced than just "food", you can modify your mnemonic image.
Everyone has their own mental associations based on their life experiences. Using someone else's mnemonic might reduce effectiveness in some cases, because you have the extra step of learning someone else's associations. If you don't like mnemonics, then just ignore them. I'm finding them incredibly useful, and it makes the learning fun because the results are much faster for me than just using repetition. Edited by Josh Cohen on 25 July 2011 at 12:53pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| jean-luc Senior Member France Joined 4961 days ago 100 posts - 150 votes Speaks: French* Studies: German | Message 50 of 89 25 July 2011 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Cainntear, which technique do you use for learning words ?
Josh, beside you website, do you have any interesting link on the topic of learning languages with mnemonics ? I would like to give it a try. Edited by jean-luc on 25 July 2011 at 1:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 51 of 89 25 July 2011 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
It's irrelevant whether they "necessarily cause you to" or not, what matters more is whether they "open the possibility" to or not. Playing Russian Roulette doesn't "necessarily cause you to die", but it opens you to the risk, and is a stupid thing to do....
No, you've merely asserted that they do. I've presented a mechanism by which they could theoretically interfere with natural learning, you've simply said they don't. You are free to disagree, but you haven't explained anything.
A) Written language is fairly abstract, and reading is a far more conscious activity than speaking. B) "Ч" is a not the same as English CH. It's similar, but it's not the same.
...(Which isn't what I said, and I just said that that isn't what I said...)...
You cannot create an unambiguous mental image of "food". Any picture of food will be of a specific foodstuff or several foodstuffs. The only abstract representation we have of any concept is a word. If I ask you to draw "motor vehicle", you'd probably draw a car. If you ask me for a photo of a duck, I'd give you a photo of a drake mallard. If you ask me to draw a tree, I'll give you a squiggly representation of a conifer. An image cannot ecapsulate an entire concept.
Then mnemonics are useless, because only someone who knows the target subject can teach it.
Now there's a line in irony. You complain about people confusing "memorising" with "repetition" then when I point out that people frequently confuse "rote learning" with "repeitition" -- twice -- you completely fail to acknowledge it. Mnemonics are a form of rote learning, because you learn in an arbitrary way, rather than by employing the material in a meaningful way. There are many ways you can practice the word "comida" without recourse to reciting "food, comida, food, comida". You can translate sentences like "I'd like some food", "Have you got any food?", "There wasn't any food left when I got there", "if you'd had some food when I offered, you wouldn't be hungry now". Or you can write "comida" and "bebida" (drink) at the top of a sheet of paper, then start categorising other words underneath them. You can work with the past participle of the verb "comer" (to eat), use it as an adjective and put it into the feminine, and you have a word of the same form. Your mnemonics are quicker than something that I am not proposing: pure rote memorisation. It's not quicker than a well-structured and well-taught vocabulary course. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Josh Cohen Newbie United States mnemotechnics.org/ Joined 4877 days ago 35 posts - 63 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Portuguese, Esperanto | Message 52 of 89 25 July 2011 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I only know the technique from Dominic O'Brien's brief descriptions in Quantum Memory Power and How to Develop a Brilliant Memory Week by Week. I recommend both. He doesn't go into the technique in depth. I'm experimenting with it and trying to refine it a bit. Anything you want to categorize, you can place in a separate location of your town or memory palace. For example, in Esperanto, I'm placing words that are the same as in English in their own sections of my memory palace. That way, when I pull up the images, I'll immediately know that it's basically a modified English word (birdo > bird, vagono > wagon, biero > beer). "False friends" can easily be identified because they aren't in the English-equivalent section (demandi > ask, aliĝi > join, atendi > wait). I'm starting my serious experiments with Esperanto, because it's a simple, regular language. I might be moving to Europe soon, so my next language will depend on which country I end up in. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Josh Cohen Newbie United States mnemotechnics.org/ Joined 4877 days ago 35 posts - 63 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Portuguese, Esperanto | Message 53 of 89 25 July 2011 at 2:21pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
From practical experimentation, I believe that the technique actually reduces the chance of making the mistakes you are referring to. If we continue, we're just going to be repeating the same arguments over again. If you don't agree, that is fine. :)
I'm speaking from personal experience. If someone here is interested in mnemonics, I'm happy to share what I'm working on. You don't have to agree. :)
Obviously -- but I've acheived my practical goal of being able to read signs and menus during my week in Cyrillic countries, without expending much effort or needing a cheatsheet. :)
Images can ecapsulate entire concepts as easily as words can. If you can't decode your image of a conifer, then modify your image. You could attach an image for the "tr" sound: Treemonisha Three (trees) triángulo Treaty of ____ Trianda > Sevilla > an object or experience from Sevilla (you can follow chains of association) tree of life Tyr The best associations for a task depend on the person.
You still have to do this with mnemonic techniques in order to understand what you are memorizing. The techniques aren't exclusive.
The memory palace is another way to organize things in the same way. I'm organizing the words in groups on paper before memorizing them. What you are describing doesn't exclude mnemonics. Edited by Josh Cohen on 25 July 2011 at 2:25pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 54 of 89 25 July 2011 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
A cheatsheet doesn't have to be on paper. A cheatsheet on a smartphone is still a cheatsheet, and a cheatsheet in your head is still a cheatsheet. And this is the point that I'm trying to get at: memorisation is not a means of learning. If you memorise something, you still have to learn it later. As long as people recognise this distinction, I don't have a problem.
No they can't. That's the beauty of language. Anything image you can give me that encapsulates the full "motor vehicle" will be more abstract and less easy than the term itself.
You do not have to memorise it -- you have to learn it. Good instruction alleviates the need for memorisation by making it easy to learn/internalise something. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Josh Cohen Newbie United States mnemotechnics.org/ Joined 4877 days ago 35 posts - 63 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Portuguese, Esperanto | Message 55 of 89 25 July 2011 at 4:57pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
There is a huge difference between carrying around a cheatsheet on paper (or phone) and having the information stored in your head. Getting it into your head is required at some point anyway. As soon as you put the information in the oven (your head), it starts baking. Once you have the mnemonic images in your head you gain aural recognition of familiar words. You can hear words that you know, and then "look them up" in your head. They are very quickly learned that way. You can also play with the vocabulary in your head as you do other tasks, by making up sentences and practicing conjugations.
Okay -- I will concede that the images are not quite as specific as words in all cases. But in some cases they are. In my mnemonic system, which has more elements than I mentioned here, there is no ambiguity about certain things.
I don't see that memorization is ever eliminated from the sequence. You are already internalizing the information as soon as you memorize it. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6676 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 56 of 89 25 July 2011 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
:O)))))) Please, stop trolling our new friend.... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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