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Learning a language by watching TV? | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Music, Movies, TV & Radio |  | |
| dmg Diglot Senior Member Canada dgryski.blogspot.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 7002 days ago 555 posts - 605 votes  1 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Dutch, Esperanto | Message 73 of 134 14 January 2009 at 7:24am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Interesting rant, and I thought I'd just comment on this one particular paragraph.
As an anglo learning French in Quebec, I have the problem that _every_ since course I have access to only teaches International French. Growing up in Canada outside of Quebec, the International Accent was the only one they exposed us to. Moving here, buying my courses, looking at the resources available online there is almost _nothing_ that _usefully_ allows me to learn the Quebec accent. When I first moved here, I could hardly understand anybody, even though I could eavesdrop on French (from France) tourists in the London Underground when I was over there for a bit. Fine, I've started to dipthongize some of my vowels, and I have a slight affricative on di/zi, but in general my accent is much further across the pond than I'd like. But at the same time, wht are my options? Sure, I've had my QC friends laugh at my accent, and even my choice of words and expressions. But there is no "Pimsleur Joual". I still think "portable" instead of "cellulaire" when refering to my cell phone. "télécharger" instead of "downloader". So, what's the point of my counter-rant? Not sure. I'm happy for you that you've managed to pick up the local accent and fit in. I know a couple other non-native speakers who are mistaken for locals due to their accent to so I certainly know it's possible. I guess my point is: given the choice of working on my accent or learning more vocab and grammar, I'd rather do the latter. Speaking a Parisian French is better than speaking English, and if my courses and study methods are teaching me Parisian French then that's what they're going to get. OK, end of rant. I don't know if I feel better :P 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| SlickAs Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5868 days ago 185 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Swedish Studies: Thai, Vietnamese | Message 74 of 134 14 January 2009 at 7:50am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I am with you completely on it. This is exactly what I meant ... there are no materials available for accents that are not from "the cultural capital". In Thailand they like to say that a language is just a dialect with an army. (In that the Bangkok dialect is called the Thai language). Such is life also with European languages and "culture". I think it is a real pity that in the ROC (Rest of Canada), teachers teach the Parisian accent and heap scorn upon Quebec French ... hardly helps with national unity. I don't think it matters that you speak with some sort of Anglophone Parisian accent at the moment. The Quebecois will understand, and would probably encourage you to continue to do so (but at the same time will make jokes about how gay the French sound). Just make it clear that you love Quebec, are here to learn the language, and you are not going after Paris accent long term when you are making new friends. If you ask girls to teach you some joual (pronounced jwal), you will get line-ups of pretty girls wanting to give you a crash course. It is, in fact a good party trick that will make you popular in bars. You will pick up the Quebec accent over time, and I am sure you are already saying dépanneur, Gichet (ATM), SAQ, Régie du logement, etc. Make sure you give it the 'fin de semaine' instead of 'le weekend', and 'stationnement' instead of 'le parking' and you wont offend. They dont like you preferring to use a Parisian anglacism ... it sounds kind of affected to do so. Just as a note of warning: be a bit careful not to speak joual over 'international French' (i.e. don't do it intentionally), unless it is as a party trick to get a laugh, as accent and word choice in Montreal French is loaded with class and socio-economic markers that you can not possibly understand just yet (although if it starts unintentionally slipping into your speech it is a good thing). But you can immitate the accent of the person you are speaking to and if he / she is giving it the full joual treatment (with the "moé", "toé", tabarnak, 'sti, etc.) you can be quite sure that you can just let it rip in reply and practice your joual in all its glory. But it is all fun, man. And watching some TV and ripping some audio from local films can be your 'Pimsleur Joual'. Edited by SlickAs on 14 January 2009 at 8:10am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| dmg Diglot Senior Member Canada dgryski.blogspot.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 7002 days ago 555 posts - 605 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Dutch, Esperanto | Message 75 of 134 14 January 2009 at 8:30am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Well, I'm actually not here to learn the language. I'm here to live my life. It just so happens that my life pulled me to Montreal after university, because that's where the company was who offered me a job.
Right, and my Anglo office and my Anglo wife and my Anglo friends make it all the more likely I'm going to end up in a French speaking bar looking for pickup lines. (Yes, I know it was an example.) That's part of my problem, though -- breaking into the French side of things when I'm already quite entrenched in the Montreal anglo scene. Which means I go to anglo parties and meet more anglo friends, and more anglo co-workers.
Well, I'm actually more likely to continue to speak in my 'normal' register. I understand what people sound like whey they use slang out of context, and I'd rather communicate at a too-elevated level than a too-low one.
I've tried. I watched a bunch of "Un Gars, Une Fille" (both the QC and the FR version) and decided I prefered the France one. I've watched some QC films, but nothing jumps out at me as something I want to watch. I don't actually watch that my TV in English, so again it's the same problem: finding materials that interest me. Oh well, one more thing for my TODO list... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6430 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 76 of 134 14 January 2009 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That is also entirely divorced from what I meant. Striving to speak a non-native language without errors imported from your native language is more along the lines of what I meant by 'high standards'. More or less by definition, if you want to sound like a native speaker, you need to sound like a particular subset of native speakers: if you have a perfect RP 'o' sound and a perfect New York 'a' and a perfect Texan 'i', you'll sound extremely odd and probably difficult to understand. Hence, you need to pick an accent. (Edit: and you need to pick the speech patterns, including grammar, of some subset of the population) Yes, you can coherently argue that any element of the above is also snobbishness; we would have to agree to disagree on that, though. The sociological realities of different language registers and their perception by native speakers, and whether or not they should be ranked, is a discussion I do not intend to enter into with you. A last note: I'd consider a non-native who strove to sound exactly like a Cornish lighthouse keeper to have high standards - perhaps odd ones, but high ones. Edited by Volte on 14 January 2009 at 1:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5829 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 77 of 134 14 January 2009 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Perhaps I misunderstood how people interpret the expression "BBC English?"
The way I understand it, BBC English means plain, school book, no-accent, well-educated English. I don't think about it as a snobbish way of speaking, do you? It's probably the easiest English to understand for a non-native. I think Queens English/posh public school type English is a different thing from BBC English. Aspiring to speak like the Queen is probably rather snobbish. It's a pretty bad idea for many reasons... Most BBC presenters are fairly down-to-earth people who speak an accent-less standard English as far as I can tell (Although this has exceptions; there is a main news anchors definitely sounds Welsh and many documentareis on BBC have Scottish narrators). Within Britain accent is a sensitive topic to many people, I've noticed. It all comes down to what type of school the speaker went to. This is not strongly present in Swedish for example, and not in German or French as far as I am aware. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6934 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 78 of 134 14 January 2009 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
In the US, the analog of BBC is probably NPR (National Public Radio - http://www.npr.org), and while they do employ standard American English, some of their announcers sound a bit different, what to me sounds as somewhat affected. On the other hand, some TV news anchors sound closer to the mainstream neutral accent without any additional affectation except for clear diction and professionalism. In which category do the BBC folks fall? Of the States I've been to, Californians seem to have a fairly neutral (American) accent. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| SlickAs Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5868 days ago 185 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Swedish Studies: Thai, Vietnamese | Message 79 of 134 14 January 2009 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yeah, I was the same (in that I was not in Montreal specifically to learn French), and worked "Anglophone" career jobs. My only point is that in one of those slightly tense situations when you can feel the politics of sovreignty in the air, like maybe a waitress messed up your order intentionally, you treat it with a *Big Smile* and bubbly "I am here to learn your French, help me" style thing and you will get a COMPLETE in attitude. Smiles, invitations, etc.
Yeah, I know, I have been there. I arrived in Montreal uni-lingual (or rather tri-lingual English, Spanish, Swedish). I too got stuck on the Anglo side of things for years. I was even kind of subtly scared of the pure laine Quebecois bars in the East End, etc. It was a real adventure to go over and explore that side of town (just a block over ... from St Laurent to St Denis and east along Mont-Royal). And I agree, it is different being married to being single and enjoying to mingle. I am now engaged to a Quebecoise, and we return to Montreal in May. So I have a whole other level of commitment ... I plan to live my life in Quebec. My in-laws are Quebecois and my mother-in-law does not speak a word of English. It is not just Christmas, etc of extended families and drunk uncles that is spent deep in the Joual accent, but also my social life. Under Bill 101 my future children will be Quebecois (albeit fluently and natively bi-lingual with 2 mother tongues). As much as in the past I have worked in Anglo jobs dealing with the US and ROC where your ability to speak English is more important than your ability to speak French, when I return I will be applying for francophone jobs that require bi-lingualism. But I do wonder what my next language will be like to learn given I will be no longer single. I kind of mourn that, but still wouldn't trade it (and my partner is tri-lingual in English, Spanish and French and she is currently working her way through Pimsleur Thai). All that means that I am committed to getting my French quasi-perfect, and doing that with the Quebec accent. It is for that reason that I rip the audio from films like C.R.A.Z.Y. and Quebec-Montreal, etc. Anything in native Quebec French (although I wont use "Les Invasions Barbares" ... too heavy, and who wants to listen over and over to the story of a guy dying of cancer?) I am going to be interviewing in the language in 5 months time. I also have a copy of "Les Belles Soeurs" on my bookshelf, and have had my girl-friend read passages in joual into a digital voice recorder. (If you could get yourself a copy and get the chance to see "Les Belles Soeurs" performed by actors, even if it is a high-school production at some school on the South Shore and take along a tape recorder, that would be invaluable. But at the same time, any Quebecois friend or co-worker would be flattered that you want to learn Montreal French by immitating him / her, and would be more than happy to read a few pages of the play into a tape recorder). Anyway, it really is a pity that there are no resources in it. You would think that given at least you and I are looking for it, some company would find it profitable. In the mean time, I will be relying on film and TV. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| SlickAs Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5868 days ago 185 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Swedish Studies: Thai, Vietnamese | Message 80 of 134 14 January 2009 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Umm ... no. It is definitely an accent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation 1 person has voted this message useful |
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