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The development of French in Africa | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 97 of 135 15 November 2011 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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In all of this lengthy debate, the fundamental point of contention is the definition of what it is to be French-speaking or to be a French-speaking country. One very loose definition of "speaks French" leads an observer here to believe that the République démocratique du Congo has a larger French-speaking population than France and that its capital, Kinshasa, is more French-speaking than Montreal. By the same logic, there are more French-speakers in Africa than in the rest of the francophone world.
Obviously, I take a different view. when someone says to me that 92% of the population of Kinshasa speaks French, I'm really curious as to how this works in the daily lives of people. All the more so that where I live in Montreal, Quebec, the statistics state that about 83% of the population is made up of native French-speakers. If I were to go to Kinshasa, would I find myself in a French-speaking environment similar or even more French-speaking than here in Montreal? I'm not being facetious. I'm really curious as to how the francophonie works in the everyday lives of Africans. The problem seems to lie in the status of the indigenous African languages. It so happens that, unlike France and Quebec, all of so-called francophone Africa also speaks a large number of local languages. Not unexpectedly, there have been mutual influences between French and these local languages. In fact, everywhere there has developed a local variety of non-standard French that was taught in the colonies and widely used among African conscripts during the First World War. Just think about this for a moment. Tens of thousands of relatively illiterate Africans from all of the colonies are pressed together in military service in Europe under French direction. Isn't that the ideal situation for the development of a common language, a French-based pidgin? After the war, all these soldiers return to their countries, and what do we see?. Surprise! The rapid development of popular variety of French often called "le français militaire" or "le français tirailleurs." So, when we look, not at the lofty statistics about the number of speakers of French but at the language of everyday life, we are looking at a dynamic with a least three components: the official French of government, business and the school system, the indigenous African languages and the indigenous or popular variety of French. A key factor here is access to higher education--the assumption being that proficiency in French goes with schooling. In all of this, of course, the situation in so-called francophone Africa is vastly different from France and Quebec. According to nordantill, the statistics say that Kinshasa is 92% French-speaking. No mention is made of Lingala, the dominant lingua franca in the region. Now, let's say a group of HTLALers travel to Kinshasa to observe the language situation. If we stay only among the expats in the most European section of the city and never go outside, we will probably hear only French. But what do you think we will see and hear as we walk around Kinshasa? Or maybe take a taxi? I think, and I am willing to be corrected by nordantill and others, that we will hear a hell of a lot of Lingala and Congolese French. I doubt that we will hear very much standard French in the market place. And if we want to take home some Congolese music in French, it will take a lot of searching. Compare this experience with that of a delegation to Montreal or to Paris. What we experienced in Kinshasa is probably not very different from what we would experience in all the African capitals. Scratch below the veneer the official language of schooling, government and the large French expat populations and you see a rich interaction of indigenous languages and local French. What is really interesting, at least for me, is the rise of indigenous lingua franca, either based on an African language or on a local variety of French or English. Standard French will remain an official language and a language of international communication for the foreseeable future, of course. In this I agree with nordantill. But in the everyday lives of people, its a different story. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Haldor Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5616 days ago 103 posts - 122 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Swedish Studies: French, Spanish | Message 98 of 135 15 November 2011 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | ||
I'm curious as to how the governments of France and Québec act on this matter. Surely, they must realize how big of an opportunity Francophone Africa is to them.. I'm guessing this is the actual reason why they chose to establish la Francophonie. I think France is responsible fr more than 90 per cent of its budget. If Africa were to be all anglophone/non-francophone, it would at least be a huge loss to French and France, and maybe, but not necessarily Africa.... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| nordantill Triglot Newbie Sweden Joined 6825 days ago 16 posts - 54 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, Mandarin Studies: Spanish, French | Message 99 of 135 15 November 2011 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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Strikingstar: Good post on the background of Swahili. Having traveled quite extensively throughout East Africa myself, I could observe basically the same thing regarding Swahili in Uganda. Instead of using my very rudimentary Swahili , I had to rely on English basically everywhere in and around Kampala. Though I noticed that there seems to be a palpable difference between southern Uganda and Kampala on the one hand and the north on the other. In and around Kampala most people seemed to be rather dismissive when it came to Swahili, while I quite frequently came across people further up north who didn't hesitate to speak the language.
As for the whole region, I'd say that Swahili's position as the primary Lingua Franca is more or less secured in Tanzania and Kenya, while it is first and foremost a commercial language used in the border regions of the neighboring countries. Only time will tell if it becomes more widely spoken there as well. S_allard: You wrote "I don't think nordantill has ever set foot in Africa and experienced the linguistic realities of the continent". As indicated above I've traveled quite extensively throughout Africa,primarily in East and Central Africa. As well as a traveling there I've also done academic research on conflict resolution and gender based violence in the region. In fact, I've spent most of my time in Africa doing field research related to these topics. On top of that, I've been living together with people from the West African diaspora in Europe for an extended period of time. So I do believe that I have experienced "the linguistic realities of the continent". Before I go on, I want to thank you for taking your time discussing this topic. I do believe that a a lot of our disagreements stem from misunderstandings rather than actual differences. Let me now comment on some of the things you brought up; Am I reading that nordantill really believes that the Républigque Démocratique du Congo has a larger French-speaking population than France? And that Kinshasa is the second largest French-speaking city in the world, way ahead of Montreal, Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux, etc? And that 92% of the population of Kinshasa speak French? Which is more than Montreal. I'm afraid that I can't really find any common ground for discussion with somebody who can make those statements with a straight face. I give up. Now, this is clearly a misunderstanding and most probably a result of my sloppy writing. What I meant to say was that the total number of French speakers in Kinshasa is greater than the corresponding number in Montreal. My original sentence might have been a bit ambiguous and therefore it might have seemed like I was saying that Congo-Kinshasa in total has more French-speakers than France itself. Let me reassure you: I would never make a stupid claim like that, it's all a result of a misunderstanding. What I did say however is that there are more French speakers in Kinshasa than Montreal. I believe that is an issue where our opinions will greatly differ. No matter if we've been talking about Gabon, Cameroon, Cote D'Iovire etc you have quite consistently made the claim that French is not the primary language for commerce and social interaction in most francophone countries in Africa( and therefore might not be considered Francophone in a true sense): "Let's start with the last statement that in Abidjan, the capital of Côte d'Ivoire, French is spoken by 99% of the population. Keep in mind that Côte d'Ivoire has a very large expat population made up primarily of French from France (and dual citizenship holders), other Europeans and a large Syrian-Lebanese colony. Does 99% of the populations of Abidjan speak the same kind of French? I know that most of the readers here at HTLAL have not been to Abidjan. I have been, albeit not recently. But do any readers here believe that if they go to the largest open air market located in area called Treichville that 99% of the interaction between people takes place in French? And just exactly what kind of French is spoken? Can you close your eyes and imagine that you are at a market in one of the arrondissements of Paris?"....."What can we conclude about the situation in Côte d'Ivoire and in most countries? A very tiny majority of Africans (excluding the expat communities) have French--and only French--as their native tongue. The vast majority of Africans speak one or two, if not more native languages, and some variety of French". First of all I have never said that most people in Francophone Africa are monolingual French-speakers (although their numbers are clearly increasing, something I will discuss in a moment) or even that French is the most widely used language in these places. What I am saying is that these numbers are correct in the sense that they indicate that a greater number of people, sometimes a majority, do speak the language. I am fully aware of the multilingual reality existing in the vast majority of African countries. But I am also aware of the fact that French (as well as English and Portuguese in anlgo/lusophone countries) is a part of this equation. You talk about the creolization of French in various countries. And I know that this is happening, but this does not in any sense contradict what I've said before. Even though some localized forms of French have emerged (same thing happening with English and Portuguese in various places) most people are still able to speak a more standardized form of the language. This is the case in most African countries where there are creole-languages; Nigeria the vast majority of Pidgin-speakers do also speak English, in Sao Tome Y Principe the Portuguese based creole language Forro is spoken by 85% of the population while 95% also speak proper Portuguese. Same thing in other places; In Mauritius where a French based creole is the main language French is still spoken by the vast majority (72.7%), and in Kenya sheng, a mix of English, Swahili, and other indigenous languages, has not in any way reduced the usage of English. And the same thing is happening in Francophone Africa: "Il existe en général dans chaque pays, une variété reconnue de français qui diffère du français standard par des particularités ou des traits caractéristiques. En effet, ce français prend en compte le milieu physique et le milieu socio-culturel faisant naître des néologismes de nécessité....De la même façon, le locuteur africain n'est pratiquement pas choqué d'entendre, malgré les redondances flagrantes: "elle est montée en haut ou il est descendu en bas" car ces constructions existent dans sa langue.En ce sens, le français local africain est l'équivalent des parlers régionaux d'autres pays tels le parler provençal, breton, corse, belge, québécois, etc. En fait, chaque locuteur dispose de plusieurs registres, de plusieurs "français" selon la personne à qui il s'adresse et selon le contexte social (du soutenu au familier).". So in other words, a local patois as well as a more standardized form of a language usually co-exist. I've previously shown statistics indicating just how important French is for immigration and economic reasons in Francophone Africa. Let me just one more time make this clear: French , not a creole-version of the language or a an indigenous language, is the only language that enables people from all of the countries that make up Francophone Africa to communicate. And this is an ongoing process happening right now. Again let me quote one of me previous posts ( I know this is getting a bit repetitive but bear with me): ""The communality of language in the francophone zone tends to facilitate networks and communication across boundaries especially because a large part of trade across borders consists of informal and clandestine transactions"(source). So I'm not talking about hypothetical examples ,but the actual situation today; A vast area with more than 115 million French-Speakers who use the language for communication across borders and boundaries. How we then can talk about decline is completely beyond me. Let me also briefly touch upon the issue of native French-speakers in Africa. This is an on-going process taking place in several francophone countries. Your response to this was to start talking about pidgin-English in Cameroon, well that's not exactly the same thing is it? I know that Cameroon has an extreme linguistic diversity; and that Pidgin-English as well as Camfranglais and French serve as lingua francas. But that's not what I was talking about. I was pointing out the fact that : "Francophone adults used French in 42 percent of the domestic communications which were studied, whereas the young (10–17 years old) used French in 70 percent of the communication. 32 percent of the young between ten and seventeen years old interviewed in Yaounde did not know any national language and had French as their L1(First language) (source). Furtermore:"There is a clear change in language use from the parent generation to the generation of their children......Studies of language use in Cameroon show that French is gaining ground in urban areas, since there is a lack of inter-generational transmission via national languages....Accordingly, an accelerating urbanisation rate may affect the linguistic situation in Cameroon, "as the role and use of Cameroonian French will be expanding". So what we see is that there is a process of language transmission taking place on a large scale. Same thing happening in Douala ( the biggest city in Cameroon) where an estimated 99% of the population can speak French. A recent survey conducted in Douala gives a interesting description of this: "Au Cameroun, grâce à une enquête menée dans la ville de Douala (région du Littoral) depuis 2008, on a pu mesurer la connaissance et l’utilisation de la langue française au sein de la population. Ainsi, plus de 90% des «Doualais» parlent, lisent, écrivent et comprennent français. Pour 1255 individus de plus de 15 ans interrogés, la connaissance du français est indispensable et importante à 96% pour faire des études supérieures, 94% pour faire des démarches administratives, 97% pour s’informer dans les médias, 94% pour obtenir un travail et 77% pour réussir dans la vie. En somme, une majorité des personnes interrogées pensent que la langue française progresse au Cameroun". OK, I could probably go on giving more examples, but the it should be obvious by now that A: French is becoming a native language for a large number of young Cameroonians. And B: This not something that just concerns the elite. In Yaounde, as pointed out above,youths aged 10-17 used French in Seventy percent of their communication at home, a third of them are monolingual French speakers! The amount of French used has also increased compared to their parents, so we can see in which direction this is heading. So finally, should we regard these countries as Francophone? I would definitely say yes but you seem to disagree "the situation in so-called francophone Africa is vastly different from France and Quebec. According to nordantill, the statistics say that Kinshasa is 92% French-speaking. No mention is made of Lingala, the dominant lingua franca in the region. Now, let's say a group of HTLALers travel to Kinshasa to observe the language situation. If we stay only among the expats in the most European section of the city and never go outside, we will probably hear only French. But what do you think we will see and hear as we walk around Kinshasa? Or maybe take a taxi? I think, and I am willing to be corrected by nordantill and others, that we will hear a hell of a lot of Lingala and Congolese French. I doubt that we will hear very much standard French in the market place. And if we want to take home some Congolese music in French, it will take a lot of searching. Compare this experience with that of a delegation to Montreal or to Paris". Yeah the situation is different in Francophone Africa compared to say France or Quebec, but I've never claimed otherwise. French is not a native language for most people there. But that does not mean that it is not widely used or spoken. It coexists together with the local languages and is used frequently in different situations. You seem to miss this point most of the time. Even the statics you use indicate this ,for example you point that in Abidjan "88% of the interactions in the market take place in African languages". This is probably a correct estimate. But don't you realize what it means? 12% of the interactions would be in French.This is more than just a case of having learned a second language. As a comparison 85% of all Swedes claim to speak English, does that mean that 10-15% of all social interactions in Sweden are conducted in English? Anyone who can think himself out of a paper bag knows that this is not the case. And the reason is obvious; English is merely a second language in Sweden, something you learn in school and use when you go abroad and so on. Contrast this with Francophone Africa where, French is, albeit not in most cases, used for social interaction within the country itself. If we were to go on this imaginary trip to Kinshasa we would indeed notice that Lingala would be widely spoken around the city and used in a lot of situations. But we would also quickly find out that French was widely spoken and understood across the city and spoken by most people. We would also see that the language dominated radio broadcasts,TV-shows not to mention printed media. And yeah, if we walked down a random street we would surely hear a lot of Lingala. But we would also frequently hear French spoken, either mixed with Lingala, in a local version or in a way which resembles more standard French. There's a lot more to say about this, but this post is already too long (and too incoherent?) so I better stop now. Anyhow I gotta say that I enjoy discussing this topic with you and that I also learn a lot in the process. Mad max: You wrote "In French Africa, people study French as a means of instruction. But that is not relevant because almost nobody use it as mother tongue.....Third, we read that French is spoken by 115 million of Africans. But, which kind of French? ¿How many of them speak French as a French, or a Quebecois?. If you go to Haiti, you don't understand too much. Creole French in Haiti is yet another language and the situation in French Africa is likely to be very similar". Please take a look at my posts and you will see that none of these statements are correct. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Haldor Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5616 days ago 103 posts - 122 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Swedish Studies: French, Spanish | Message 100 of 135 15 November 2011 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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Wow, Nordantill, I'm truly impressed with your knowledege. I won't take sides in this argument, you've both written impressive posts. What nordantill states here certainly corresponds with my impressions from young Africans, who seem to hold French in high esteem, and what I've read on wiki. S_allard probably made a good point about the "quality" of French in those countries. It probably slides over into creole sometimes. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't speak a more standardized version
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 101 of 135 15 November 2011 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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I will apologize to nordantill for my comments about lack of field experience in Africa. And, rest assured, readers, I will not launch into another discussion about the future of French in Africa. Since the debate seems to revolve around varying interpretations of what it means to speak French, I think it may be a question of seeing the glass half empty of half full.
I do find the statistics about the penetration of French in the Cameroons quite interesting and exciting. Exciting because if French is becoming the maternal language of so many Cameroonians to the point of no longer using an indigenous language or pidgin-English, then this of course a prelude to the development of Cameroonian French. I also note that there is a fair amount of music sung in French by Cameroonians although my observation is that most of the music is in an indigenous language. And there doesn't seem to be anything sung in pidgin-English. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| lecavaleur Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4778 days ago 146 posts - 295 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish | Message 102 of 135 16 November 2011 at 2:51am | IP Logged | ||
The truth is that the word francophone, being a French word, as defined in French dictionaries, is not a perfect synonym for 'de langue maternelle française'. I don't see the point in clinging to this false definition. The history of French as a language thus far is inseparable from the history of France and French colonialism. That means that there are a lot of people who are bona fide francophones who have a mother tongue other than French. Look in any French dictionary you want, and you will see this reality reflected in the definition. The suppler criteria for being francophone cannot be automatically transposed to similar words for other languages like 'hispanophone'. Different language, different context. As for whether or not Morocco can be considered a francophone country, I think it deserves a nuanced response. It can be considered francophone insofar as a very large number of people there speak and use French on a daily basis and French occupies an important position in business, trade, etc. It is also one of the more authentic members of the Francophonie, having had a rather recent colonial history with France. In this nuanced sense, we can call it a francophone country as long as we remember that it is first and foremost a mostly Arabic speaking Muslim country and not « de souche française ». Morroco is certainly more francophone than Ontario, where despite the fact that half a million francophones supposedly live there and certain government services are offered in French in certain areas, French has next to no importance in greater Ontarian society and English is the dominant language in all spheres of life. You would have a very hard time travelling or working in Ontario if you didn't speak a word of English. In Morocco or Ivory Coast, you'd get by very well. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 103 of 135 16 November 2011 at 6:14am | IP Logged | ||
I see that calling Morocco a francophone country must be done in a nuanced fashion. And rightly so because the official language is not French. And I doubt that the Algerians would like to be called francophones. Why all these precautions with the North African countries and their large French-speaking populations and at the same time no hesitation in calling the subsaharan countries francophone when the percentages of actual French-speakers is much greater in North Africa? The answer of course is in the politics. The North African countries chose Arabic as their official languages although there was and is considerable linguistic diversity. They could have chosen to retain French for all the good reasons that we all know about. French has not disappeared in those countries. It is very alive and well. It's just that is not the language of domination that it was. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6551 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 104 of 135 16 November 2011 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | ||
Totally agree. Thanks very much for your posts, nordantill. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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