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The development of French in Africa | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| nway Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/Vic Joined 5416 days ago 574 posts - 1707 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean | Message 33 of 135 11 November 2011 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Quebec's economy is roughly the same size as Hong Kong's, despite Quebec having roughly 1 million more people. But I don't think anyone considers Cantonese to be a "world-class language", even despite the per-capita wealth of Hong Kong.
No one doubts that French is more economically influential than the likes of Hungarian and Croatian. This thread is about French relative to Spanish...
Geography is a rather arbitrary measurement. Dutch and its mutually intelligible offshoot Afrikaans are official languages in Suriname, several Caribbean islands, and South Africa, which one could of course then extrapolate to "South America", "North America", and "Africa", which, along with Europe, would mean Dutch is spoken in 4 continents. Clearly Dutch is more important than the likes of German and Mandarin Chinese! And clearly Dutch is four-fifths as influential as French! [/facepalm] Edited by nway on 11 November 2011 at 6:12pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 34 of 135 11 November 2011 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I don't think that we are discounting French-speakers in Africa as second-language speakers only. It is a plain fact that most so-called francophone Africans do not have French as their first or maternal language in the same way that the French or Québécois do. In the same breath, I think that it is very disparaging to say that the first language is "often a dialect that has no written form, limited vocabulary and which might not be spoken by many or even most of their neighbours." This is simply not true. All major African languages today have a written form. Their vocabulary can be extended where necessary. And some languages are widely spoken. French, of course, is an official language and a language of international communication. But I would hardly call it a second maternal language. As for calling Africans francophones as anyone from France, I wonder what Africans must think about this statement. Frankly, i think it smacks of neo-colonialism. I have no doubt that certain Africans speak excellent French, especially those educated and raised in France, but I think that the vast majority of Africans who have never set foot in France, would prefer to be considered Africans first and francophones second. Edited by s_allard on 11 November 2011 at 6:28pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| lecavaleur Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4778 days ago 146 posts - 295 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish | Message 35 of 135 11 November 2011 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
You know that it's not just one isolated factor that is important, it's all of them together that counts, so cool it with the sarcasm because it is indicative of bad faith. With the economic strength of its native speakers, it wide geographic distribution (spoken in 49 countries on 5 continents) it's political and diplomatic usage (working language of UN, EU, NATO, Olympics, etc.) and it's cultural significance, French is an extremely attractive language for anyone to learn and it certainly is competitive with Spanish even with the superior number of native speakers of the latter. Even if we were to only concentrate on the 'rich' French-speaking countries, which give us about 72 million native speakers, their economic influence suprasses that of Spanish speakers'. The richest Spanish-speaking country as far as GDP per capita is Spain, yet over 19% of Spaniards live below Spain's poverty line. We won't even talk about Mexico, Peru, Bolivia, Guatemala, etc. It's undeniable that of the 417 million native speakers, most of them are living in moderate to extreme poverty which lessens their economic importance. They are concentrated mostly in Latin America, whose political and economic instability make investment in those countries a difficult prospect, same as Africa. What is the economic interest for someone from an affluent Western nation to learn Spanish? I'm sure there is a certain interest but I'm not sure it equals or surpasses that of French. I am not talking about the cultural interest, which I am sure is great, but from a purely economic standpoint, how will learning Spanish allow me to advance my career more than learning French, when the majority of native Spanish speakers live in a state of endemic economic and political uncertainty while the vast majority of French native speakers live in long-term economic success and political stability? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| nway Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/Vic Joined 5416 days ago 574 posts - 1707 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean | Message 36 of 135 11 November 2011 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Local demographics. Simple as that. I hear Spanish every single day at my work, and my manager has explicitly encouraged me to improve my Spanish. Meanwhile, I could be the most proficient Francophone on earth, and it wouldn't do me squat, and this situation is the same just about anywhere in the United States. Obviously the situation would be different in Western Europe, but to this extent, *all* languages are regional. Edited by nway on 11 November 2011 at 6:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| lecavaleur Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4778 days ago 146 posts - 295 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish | Message 37 of 135 11 November 2011 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I think you are incorrect. I'm not sure how much experience you have with African francophones, but first off, being francophone is not the same thing as being French. Being francophone means that you speak French and that you participate in French-speaking culture, which is not the same thing as French culture. One can be a proud African and yet still be francophone and proudly so. I know personally and have lived with many African francophones who would be insulted by the idea that they are somehow less francophone than someone from France or Québec. Indeed, educated African francophones, even if they have never set foot in France, often do speak the language better than native speakers in countries like France, Belgium and Québec, even by our own national standards (impeccable grammar, rich vocabulary, literary culture, etc.). Secondly, a huge number of Africans do not speak a 'major African language'. Many do indeed speak small dialects. The Democratic Republic of Congo, for example, is home to well over 200 languages. One of my good friends and a former roommate of mine who now lives in Québec is originally from Gabon, has a native dialect that is not French. He admits himself being able to communicate better in French than in his own language and his daughter, who still ives in Gabon, does not even speak the native dialect. Her native language is French. This is becoming increasingly the case in families who have access to higher education. I have other friends from the DRC, Burundi, Cameroon, etc. who are experiencing the same phenomenon. One of my Congolese friends was born and raised in the DRC until he came to Canada at age 14. His parents spoke to him only in French and he is very insulted when people assume that, as an African, he somehow must not be as fluent in French as people from Québec. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| lecavaleur Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4778 days ago 146 posts - 295 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish | Message 38 of 135 11 November 2011 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Local demographics are of interest only to people to whom they apply. You may live in an area of the US where Spanish is widely spoken. I am half Texan and I lived in Texas for many, many years, where Hispanics now form a statistical majority. Yet somehow, the linguistic transfers are occurring almost exclusively in favour of English. Spanish is indispensable only for those who must communicate with unilingual hispanophones, who are not a powerful community. Their children become bilingual and their grand-children have traditionally become more capable in English than in Spanish. Even when I lived in Texas, it never once crossed my mind to learn Spanish. Why? Entirely unnecessary. English remains the language of government, commerce and prestige despite the demographics. I still go to Texas at least once a year, and never am I ever in a situation where being able to speak Spanish is a must. At best, I'd be able to understand what the gas station attendant is saying to the guy mopping the floor while I'm paying for my purchases. Or I'd be able to impress my friends when ordering at a Mexican restaurant. Other than that, Spanish is much like French in Canada outside of Québec in that it might get you a few hundred dollars extra a year in a customer service job. Culturally, I know that Spanish is incredibly rich. Economically, it would not be of much use to most people even in the US. Edited by lecavaleur on 11 November 2011 at 7:31pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 39 of 135 11 November 2011 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I disagree totally. I have lived and travelled in a number of francophone African countries and even have dabbled in a number of African languages. What percentage of so-called francophone Africans have French as their first and only language of their home? 1%-3%. I doubt that it is more than 5%. Are we to believe that there are more francophones in the République démocratique du Congo than there are in France? I have never been to Kinshasa, but is there somebody who believes that this capital with 10 million people is as French-speaking as Paris? And that if you walk through its street that you will hear only French? How many Congolese artists sing only in French? In fact, I think that there is some evidence that French may be declining in those African countries where there is a major indigenous lingua franca. For example, in Senegal, one of the most francophile countries, according the the following article: "Au Sénégal, le français est en perte de vitesse Malgré le succès que remporte chaque année la Quinzaine de la francophonie à Dakar, la langue française recule au Sénégal, où les habitants lui préfèrent le wolof." Article Edit: I just want to add a second article, more alarming than the previous one about the decline of French in Senegal: Article Here is an excerpt: "Une situation d’autant plus étonnante que le Sénégal s’enorgueillit d’être le berceau de la francophonie. Léopold Sedar Senghor (chef de l’Etat de 1960 à 1980) a été un grand défenseur de la francophonie. Il prétendait même au titre de «père de la francophonie». Le président poète a toujours proclamé son amour de la langue française. Son successeur, Abdou Diouf (au pouvoir de 1980 à 2000), dirige désormais la francophonie. A l’image de Jacques Diouf, à la tête de l'Organisation des Nations unies pour l'alimentation et l'agriculture (FAO) jusqu’à l'été 2011, les Sénégalais sont omniprésents dans les organismes internationaux. Traditionnellement, ils étaient réputés pour leur maîtrise de la langue française. Des Ivoiriens avaient d’ailleurs pour coutume de dire que les Sénégalais parlaient le «gros français», à savoir le français des Français. Mais de plus en plus, le «gros français» donne l’impression de décliner. Il laisse place à un français créolisé, un mélange de français, de wolof et aussi d’anglais." Edited by s_allard on 11 November 2011 at 8:19pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Mad Max Tetraglot Groupie Spain Joined 5052 days ago 79 posts - 146 votes Speaks: Spanish*, French, English, Russian Studies: Arabic (classical) | Message 40 of 135 11 November 2011 at 8:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Spanish is also more important economically speaking than French.
There are 50 million of Spanish speakers in USA, 4 million in Puerto Rico and 47 in Spain (and some minorities in other European countries). Only in the USA and Spain are 101 million of potential customers. If you consider France+French Belgium+French Switzerland+ Quebec, you hardly have 77-79 million of potential customers. It is true than Latin American nations are not rich, but you should consider that some 100 million of Latin Americans are also interesting potential customers in a World market. When some people speak about Hispanics in USA, they also should think about a lot of people that are also rich, like Enrique Iglesias, Jennifer Lopez, Antonio Banderas, Ricky Martin, etc. On the whole, they are 54 million people (the USA+ Puerto Rico), with a GDP bigger than Mexico. Not so bad. Finally, there is a tendency in Brazil, France, Italy and Portugal to study Spanish. Spanish is becoming the most studied lingua franca for all Romance speakers. All of them are members of the Latin American Summits. By the way, all the members of the Latin American Summits together (all Romance countries) have a bigger GDP than China and Japan together. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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