135 messages over 17 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 6 ... 16 17 Next >>
iguanamon
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 5263 days ago
2241 posts - 6731 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)
| Message 41 of 135 11 November 2011 at 8:20pm | IP Logged |
lecavaleur wrote:
| What is the economic interest for someone from an affluent Western nation to learn Spanish? I'm sure there is a certain interest but I'm not sure it equals or surpasses that of French. I am not talking about the cultural interest, which I am sure is great, but from a purely economic standpoint, how will learning Spanish allow me to advance my career more than learning French, when the majority of native Spanish speakers live in a state of endemic economic and political uncertainty while the vast majority of French native speakers live in long-term economic success and political stability? |
|
|
Try getting a white collar job in Miami without Spanish. Miami is the business capital of the Spanish-speaking Americas and is becoming increasingly important to Brazil. Miami is the US' business front door to Latin America. Proximity makes Spanish more important to the US than French. Latin America is poorer than Europe but it is still a huge nearby market for the US- as is Africa for France (and, increasingly, China.) That being said, I too will come to the defense of French in the world.
If French weren't still an important language in the world, the UN, the World Bank and other international agencies and NGO's- MSF, the IRC- would have gotten rid of it long ago. As more and more Africans in "la francophonie" leave their native villages in the growing internal exodus/migration to the cities and those countries become more urban, they will become more French-speaking as a natural consequence in their daily lives. Tribal languages will wain in importance. This will tend to reinforce French in those countries, not diminish it. In fact, this process is happening as we speak.
Edited by iguanamon on 11 November 2011 at 8:33pm
2 persons have voted this message useful
| s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5431 days ago
2704 posts - 5425 votes
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish
| Message 42 of 135 11 November 2011 at 9:33pm | IP Logged |
I really want to take exception with this notion of francophone or French-speaking Africa. (And a similar reasoning could apply to so-called English-speaking Africa). But first of all, let it be clear that my intention is not to demean in any way certain Africans by saying that their countries are not francophone. Quite the contrary, my purpose is to highlight the fact that these countries have their indigenous language that can, should and do play an increasingly important role in the social, political and economic lives of their speakers.
Africa has to be the only continent in the world where the official languages are often not indigenous or primary languages of its populations. I can't think of a country in Europe, Asia or the Americas where this is the case. But in Africa, many of the countries have an official language that was imposed by colonial rulers. But it is a plain fact that all African countries have indigenous languages that are the primary languages of the population.
As I have stated before, not more than around 5% of the population of so-called francophone African countries have French as their maternal language and their primary language in the home. Very few Africans speak only French.
I think we are seeing two thing happening today. One, as alluded to in articles quoted in my previous post, is the rise of regional African lingua franca, wolof in Senegal, Mandinko in Mali, lingala in the Congo, etc. Second, we are seeing the development of indigenous varieties of French, akin to pidgins or creoles. This is the case of Côte d'Ivoire and countries with very large numbers of local languages. So, in these countries, you have an tiny elite that speaks standard eurocentric French and then the majority population that speaks a variety of French more or less mixed with African influences. What is also happening is the spread of English through American and "English-speaking" African influences.
All of this is quite a fascinating dynamic of language change and the rise of national languages whether they are of African origin or of a hybrid of French and other languages. This is why I prefer not to speak of francophone Africa. I think the appropriate term should be something like French official language Africa. OK, it's a bit clumsy, but I think everybody gets the idea.
Edited by s_allard on 11 November 2011 at 9:35pm
4 persons have voted this message useful
| lecavaleur
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 4778 days ago
146 posts - 295 votes
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: German, Spanish
| Message 43 of 135 11 November 2011 at 10:26pm | IP Logged |
s_allard wrote:
lecavaleur wrote:
s_allard wrote:
lecavaleur wrote:
It's important not to discount French-speakers in Africa as second-language speakers only. It's not the same thing as an American studying a second langugae. For French-speaking Africans, it may not be their first language, but their first language is often a dialect that has no written form, limited vocabulary and which might not be spoken by many or even most of their neighbours.
French becomes the most important language for them because it is the public language, the language of education, work, business and culture. It becomes a second mother-tongue. These people are just as francophone as anyone in France. They often speak the language better than so-called native speakers even by French standards.
|
|
|
I don't think that we are discounting French-speakers in Africa as second-language speakers only. It is a plain fact that most so-called francophone Africans do not have French as their first or maternal language in the same way that the French or Québécois do. In the same breath, I think that it is very disparaging to say that the first language is "often a dialect that has no written form, limited vocabulary and which might not be spoken by many or even most of their neighbours." This is simply not true. All major African languages today have a written form. Their vocabulary can be extended where necessary. And some languages are widely spoken. French, of course, is an official language and a language of international communication. But I would hardly call it a second maternal language. As for calling Africans francophones as anyone from France, I wonder what Africans must think about this statement. Frankly, i think it smacks of neo-colonialism. I have no doubt that certain Africans speak excellent French, especially those educated and raised in France, but I think that the vast majority of Africans who have never set foot in France, would prefer to be considered Africans first and francophones second.
|
|
|
I think you are incorrect. I'm not sure how much experience you have with African francophones, but first off, being francophone is not the same thing as being French. Being francophone means that you speak French and that you participate in French-speaking culture, which is not the same thing as French culture. One can be a proud African and yet still be francophone and proudly so. I know personally and have lived with many African francophones who would be insulted by the idea that they are somehow less francophone than someone from France or Québec. Indeed, educated African francophones, even if they have never set foot in France, often do speak the language better than native speakers in countries like France, Belgium and Québec, even by our own national standards (impeccable grammar, rich vocabulary, literary culture, etc.).
Secondly, a huge number of Africans do not speak a 'major African language'. Many do indeed speak small dialects. The Democratic Republic of Congo, for example, is home to well over 200 languages.
One of my good friends and a former roommate of mine who now lives in Québec is originally from Gabon, has a native dialect that is not French. He admits himself being able to communicate better in French than in his own language and his daughter, who still ives in Gabon, does not even speak the native dialect. Her native language is French. This is becoming increasingly the case in families who have access to higher education.
I have other friends from the DRC, Burundi, Cameroon, etc. who are experiencing the same phenomenon. One of my Congolese friends was born and raised in the DRC until he came to Canada at age 14. His parents spoke to him only in French and he is very insulted when people assume that, as an African, he somehow must not be as fluent in French as people from Québec. |
|
|
I disagree totally. I have lived and travelled in a number of francophone African countries and even have dabbled in a number of African languages. What percentage of so-called francophone Africans have French as their first and only language of their home? 1%-3%. I doubt that it is more than 5%. Are we to believe that there are more francophones in the République démocratique du Congo than there are in France? I have never been to Kinshasa, but is there somebody who believes that this capital with 10 million people is as French-speaking as Paris? And that if you walk through its street that you will hear only French? How many Congolese artists sing only in French?
In fact, I think that there is some evidence that French may be declining in those African countries where there is a major indigenous lingua franca. For example, in Senegal, one of the most francophile countries, according the the following article:
"Au Sénégal, le français est en perte de vitesse
Malgré le succès que remporte chaque année la Quinzaine de la francophonie à Dakar, la langue française recule au Sénégal, où les habitants lui préfèrent le wolof."
Article
Edit: I just want to add a second article, more alarming than the previous one about the decline of French in Senegal: Article
Here is an excerpt:
"Une situation d’autant plus étonnante que le Sénégal s’enorgueillit d’être le berceau de la francophonie. Léopold Sedar Senghor (chef de l’Etat de 1960 à 1980) a été un grand défenseur de la francophonie. Il prétendait même au titre de «père de la francophonie». Le président poète a toujours proclamé son amour de la langue française. Son successeur, Abdou Diouf (au pouvoir de 1980 à 2000), dirige désormais la francophonie.
A l’image de Jacques Diouf, à la tête de l'Organisation des Nations unies pour l'alimentation et l'agriculture (FAO) jusqu’à l'été 2011, les Sénégalais sont omniprésents dans les organismes internationaux. Traditionnellement, ils étaient réputés pour leur maîtrise de la langue française. Des Ivoiriens avaient d’ailleurs pour coutume de dire que les Sénégalais parlaient le «gros français», à savoir le français des Français. Mais de plus en plus, le «gros français» donne l’impression de décliner. Il laisse place à un français créolisé, un mélange de français, de wolof et aussi d’anglais." |
|
|
I am not suggesting that francophone Africa itself is as francophone as, say, Paris. I am saying that an African francophone who adopts French as his main language of communication is no less a francophone than someone in Paris.
I see that you are in Canada, and I can only assume that you have interiorised the word 'francophone' as meaning « de langue maternelle française », which is not the case. This understanding of the word comes from Canada's obsession with who speaks which official language and where. If you look the word 'francophone' up in the dictionary, here is the definition you will find : « Qui parle habituellement le français. Les Africains francophones. » (Le Robert Micro, édition 2006).
Nowhere is it mentioned that to be francophone, your first language must be French. This is a Canadian usage only that is a product of Canadian language politics.
The article you quote mentions Léopold Senghor, first Black member of the Académie française. Are we to believe that he was somehow less francophone than some schmuck in a Parisian HLM simply because his native language was Sérère and not French? Absolutely not.
Anyone who adopts French as his usual language of communication is francophone à part entière.
1 person has voted this message useful
| lecavaleur
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 4778 days ago
146 posts - 295 votes
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: German, Spanish
| Message 44 of 135 11 November 2011 at 10:47pm | IP Logged |
iguanamon wrote:
lecavaleur wrote:
| What is the economic interest for someone from an affluent Western nation to learn Spanish? I'm sure there is a certain interest but I'm not sure it equals or surpasses that of French. I am not talking about the cultural interest, which I am sure is great, but from a purely economic standpoint, how will learning Spanish allow me to advance my career more than learning French, when the majority of native Spanish speakers live in a state of endemic economic and political uncertainty while the vast majority of French native speakers live in long-term economic success and political stability? |
|
|
Try getting a white collar job in Miami without Spanish. Miami is the business capital of the Spanish-speaking Americas and is becoming increasingly important to Brazil. Miami is the US' business front door to Latin America. Proximity makes Spanish more important to the US than French. Latin America is poorer than Europe but it is still a huge nearby market for the US- as is Africa for France (and, increasingly, China.) That being said, I too will come to the defense of French in the world.
If French weren't still an important language in the world, the UN, the World Bank and other international agencies and NGO's- MSF, the IRC- would have gotten rid of it long ago. As more and more Africans in "la francophonie" leave their native villages in the growing internal exodus/migration to the cities and those countries become more urban, they will become more French-speaking as a natural consequence in their daily lives. Tribal languages will wain in importance. This will tend to reinforce French in those countries, not diminish it. In fact, this process is happening as we speak.
|
|
|
Miami is a fascinating place, but how many of the USA's 310 million residents live in Miami?
I don't mean to demean Spanish but I do think its economic importance in the US is overstated. The latest census report says there are about 35 million people in the US who speak Spanish at home. That's great, but what one might easily forget is that most of these people also speak English perfectly, and English is undoubtedly the main language of public communication for them. These people mostly work in English, buy in English and go to school in English. The language transfer of second and third generation immigrants is towards English. You don't need to speak Spanish to sell these people anything, so learning it will not give you an advantage over a unilingual anglophone competitor.
It's a great thing for an Anglo-American to learn Spanish, but not learning it will not disadvantage him in any way unless maybe he wants to live in Miami and even then, I know people in Miami who live well and don't speak a word of Spanish. I know Hispanics in Miami who speak better English than Spanish and have, for all intensive purposes, become anglophones.
I mentioned earlier that I am half Texan and I've lived a huge chunk of my life in Texas where Hispanics form the statistical majority, yet the Spanish language has not become a readily coveted asset in the well-paying job market.
Edited by lecavaleur on 11 November 2011 at 10:50pm
1 person has voted this message useful
| Haldor
Triglot
Senior Member
France
Joined 5616 days ago
103 posts - 122 votes
Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Swedish
Studies: French, Spanish
| Message 45 of 135 11 November 2011 at 11:12pm | IP Logged |
iguanamon wrote:
lecavaleur wrote:
| What is the economic interest for someone from an affluent Western nation to learn Spanish? I'm sure there is a certain interest but I'm not sure it equals or surpasses that of French. I am not talking about the cultural interest, which I am sure is great, but from a purely economic standpoint, how will learning Spanish allow me to advance my career more than learning French, when the majority of native Spanish speakers live in a state of endemic economic and political uncertainty while the vast majority of French native speakers live in long-term economic success and political stability? |
|
|
Try getting a white collar job in Miami without Spanish. Miami is the business capital of the Spanish-speaking Americas and is becoming increasingly important to Brazil. Miami is the US' business front door to Latin America. Proximity makes Spanish more important to the US than French. Latin America is poorer than Europe but it is still a huge nearby market for the US- as is Africa for France (and, increasingly, China.) That being said, I too will come to the defense of French in the world.
If French weren't still an important language in the world, the UN, the World Bank and other international agencies and NGO's- MSF, the IRC- would have gotten rid of it long ago. As more and more Africans in "la francophonie" leave their native villages in the growing internal exodus/migration to the cities and those countries become more urban, they will become more French-speaking as a natural consequence in their daily lives. Tribal languages will wain in importance. This will tend to reinforce French in those countries, not diminish it. In fact, this process is happening as we speak.
|
|
|
I'm sure Spanish is more useful in the Americas than French. However, I think the development in Afrca will to a large extent determine the fate of French as an international language. Even though it's spoken in Canada, Belgium, Switzerland aside from France, French has an enourmous potential in francophone Africa. That will determine if French will compete with English and Spanish as an attractive language of communication. Or that's the conclusion I have come to..
1 person has voted this message useful
| lecavaleur
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 4778 days ago
146 posts - 295 votes
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: German, Spanish
| Message 46 of 135 11 November 2011 at 11:44pm | IP Logged |
Haldor wrote:
iguanamon wrote:
lecavaleur wrote:
| What is the economic interest for someone from an affluent Western nation to learn Spanish? I'm sure there is a certain interest but I'm not sure it equals or surpasses that of French. I am not talking about the cultural interest, which I am sure is great, but from a purely economic standpoint, how will learning Spanish allow me to advance my career more than learning French, when the majority of native Spanish speakers live in a state of endemic economic and political uncertainty while the vast majority of French native speakers live in long-term economic success and political stability? |
|
|
Try getting a white collar job in Miami without Spanish. Miami is the business capital of the Spanish-speaking Americas and is becoming increasingly important to Brazil. Miami is the US' business front door to Latin America. Proximity makes Spanish more important to the US than French. Latin America is poorer than Europe but it is still a huge nearby market for the US- as is Africa for France (and, increasingly, China.) That being said, I too will come to the defense of French in the world.
If French weren't still an important language in the world, the UN, the World Bank and other international agencies and NGO's- MSF, the IRC- would have gotten rid of it long ago. As more and more Africans in "la francophonie" leave their native villages in the growing internal exodus/migration to the cities and those countries become more urban, they will become more French-speaking as a natural consequence in their daily lives. Tribal languages will wain in importance. This will tend to reinforce French in those countries, not diminish it. In fact, this process is happening as we speak.
|
|
|
I think the development in Afrca will to a large extent determine the fate of French as an international language. Even though it's spoken in Canada, Belgium, Switzerland aside from France, French has an enourmous potential in francophone Africa. That will determine if French will compete with English and Spanish as an attractive language of communication. Or that's the conclusion I have come to.. |
|
|
I agree.
1 person has voted this message useful
| nway
Senior Member
United States
youtube.com/user/Vic
Joined 5416 days ago
574 posts - 1707 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean
| Message 47 of 135 12 November 2011 at 4:32am | IP Logged |
Mad Max wrote:
| By the way, all the members of the Latin American Summits together (all Romance countries) have a bigger GDP than China and Japan together. |
|
|
That's definitely not true. I don't know who specifically are in the "Latin American Summits", but the combined GDP of the all of Latin America would still be smaller than China's GDP alone, let alone when combined with Japan's:
Edited by nway on 12 November 2011 at 4:38am
1 person has voted this message useful
| Rutabaga
Bilingual Pentaglot
Newbie
Romania
Joined 4928 days ago
27 posts - 46 votes
Speaks: English*, Slovenian*, French, German, Russian
Studies: Portuguese, Uzbek
| Message 48 of 135 12 November 2011 at 5:58am | IP Logged |
s_allard wrote:
Africa has to be the only continent in the world where the official languages are often not indigenous or primary languages of its populations. I can't think of a country in Europe, Asia or the Americas where this is the case. But in Africa, many of the countries have an official language that was imposed by colonial rulers. But it is a plain fact that all African countries have indigenous languages that are the primary languages of the population.
As I have stated before, not more than around 5% of the population of so-called francophone African countries have French as their maternal language and their primary language in the home. Very few Africans speak only French.
I think we are seeing two thing happening today. One, as alluded to in articles quoted in my previous post, is the rise of regional African lingua franca, wolof in Senegal, Mandinko in Mali, lingala in the Congo, etc. Second, we are seeing the development of indigenous varieties of French, akin to pidgins or creoles. This is the case of Côte d'Ivoire and countries with very large numbers of local languages. So, in these countries, you have an tiny elite that speaks standard eurocentric French and then the majority population that speaks a variety of French more or less mixed with African influences. What is also happening is the spread of English through American and "English-speaking" African influences.
All of this is quite a fascinating dynamic of language change and the rise of national languages whether they are of African origin or of a hybrid of French and other languages. This is why I prefer not to speak of francophone Africa. I think the appropriate term should be something like French official language Africa. OK, it's a bit clumsy, but I think everybody gets the idea. |
|
|
A correction: Mandinko is not the lingua franca of Mali. It is Bambara. Nevertheless, having lived in Mali for two years, I would not say that Bambara is taking over French. There would be some big political problems with that. There are plenty of other languages spoken in Mali and their speakers (the Touaregs come to mind in particular) would not appreciate it. And the French spoken in Mali is pretty standard French. But to reiterate what someone said earlier, the French learned in francophone Africa cannot be compared to second-language learning elsewhere. It is the language of education and politics in all of these countries. Wolof speakers in Senegal won't suddenly decide to start learning English instead and become non-francophone. What they choose to learn as their third (or fourth or fifth) language may change, but learning French will not be subject to the popularity of various languages.
The problem with the whole argument of Spanish vs. French is that it doesn't make sense. Spanish is geographically important for one part of the world, French is important for another. Where I live right now (Central Asia), neither is important. In my own life, learning French has been far more useful. And when I started, I had no idea I would end up living in Francophone Africa. Truthfully, I've never had much use for Spanish. Which isn't to say it's not useful. It just hasn't been useful for me. Spanish and French are both very important in their own rights. I don't really see how we can call one more important than the other.
5 persons have voted this message useful
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum
This page was generated in 4.7646 seconds.
DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
|
Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages
Printable version
