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When can one adopt a native dictionary? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5801 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 33 of 124 17 November 2011 at 2:50am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think such a system is probably very effective. I looked at this site before. My one concern is the quality of the audio. It relates to the other recently-active thread on HTLAL about audio quality. In the first French section, there is Quebec slow and Quebec normal by a female voice, and France by a male voice. I find the information content and the 'audio power" in the female voice to be very low and hard for me to understand. The male voice has "full power" and is easy to understand. It is not an issue of volume. I think the high tones in the female voice may be cut off. The voice is clear but it seems somehow distorted. I wonder if others find the same thing or is it just my ears. Probably native Francophones might not notice the difference. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 34 of 124 17 November 2011 at 10:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't want silly arguments either -- I want productive debate. Please do not try to charicature someone else's arguments as "silly" if you're not willing to debate them. As I said, I'm willing to agree to disagree, but I do find it quite irritating that you continuously take a stab at me then try to stifle my response. Yes, some people like using monolingual resources and some people like using bilingual resources. People get acceptable results both ways. We agree on this. Which is better? We disagree on this. Why is one better than the other? We also disagree on this. Fine. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 35 of 124 17 November 2011 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Who ever said that monolingual dictionaries are better than bilingual dictionaries? Please, can we move on?
The main reason for my recommending that learners use reference works in the target language TO COMPLEMENT ANY BILINGUAL MATERIALS is that it encourages learning through the medium of the target language and gives what I called a native-like perspective. This latter part of my statement seems to put some people's noses out of joint. Basically, my contention is that it is interesting and instructive to use the tools that natives--or some natives--use when studying their own language. Obviously, we are talking about advanced levels of proficiency in the target language. One of the interesting things about using these materials is seeing areas of difficulty or diverging usage that native users may face. In French, and to a lesser extent in Spanish, there are entire dictionaries of difficulties or what in English we would call pitfalls. The focus tends to be on common grammatical mistakes and words that are often confused. In French, it is worthwhile having a look at one of these books especially if you plan to do any writing because written French is very tricky even for native speakers. I've also found that Spanish-language grammar books will treat subjects that are often glossed over in their English-language counterparts. Dialectal or geographic variation is a major issue in Spanish books whereas English-language texts tend to present a very standardized picture of Spanish. One example is the treatment of "voseo", the usage of a variant of the second person personal pronoun "tu" and its implications for verb conjugations. Another example is the treatment of certain usages of direct object pronouns under the heading "leismo, loismo, laismo". I have been told that many or most native speakers do not own dictionaries or grammar books. And I certainly recognize that native speakers do not learn their language entirely through books. But if you do any writing in any language, your own or in a foreign language, I don't see how anyone can do without consulting a dictionary or grammar reference in paper or electronic form. Speaking is somewhat different, but I find it very hard to believe that even native speakers can learn to speak in an articulate and sophisticated manner without consulting these reference works. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5946 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 36 of 124 17 November 2011 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
A decent university-level grammar of Spanish is likely to cover these at least to the point of understanding, regardless of the language it's written in. The question is really how much detail you need. Do you need to be able to recreate it accurately? Most likely you only need to be able to recognise it when you hear it. For that, something like the Routledge Modern Grammar series is usually enough. But in reality this isn't a question of language, it's a question of size. The Real Academia's Nueva Gramatica is ten times the size of Routledge's Modern Spanish Grammar, so of course it has more detail. And if you want a book of that size and that level of detail, then you do normally need to get native materials. However, most people don't want a book that big. So to go back to the original question: when should you adopt a native dictionary? When you want a dictionary bigger than the biggest bilingual dictionary available in your language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6517 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 37 of 124 17 November 2011 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What do you mean by "writing" in this case? Like, professional writing that is published in books and/or magazines? Or would you include the sort of stuff regular people write, like emails, letters, presentations and company-internal memos? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 38 of 124 17 November 2011 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I mean pretty much all forms of writing. Obviously most people don't use a dictionary for emails and text messages. I do hope that if you are doing a powerpoint presentation that you use a spellchecker or a dictionary. On my computer my HTLAL posts are spell checked and I still make all kinds of mistakes. When I look at some of the letters I receive I wish people would check their spelling and grammar more. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PaulLambeth Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5308 days ago 244 posts - 315 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Icelandic, Hindi, Irish | Message 39 of 124 17 November 2011 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
That's, of course, person-specific. I never use a dictionary or a grammar for my native English, even when I write academic papers. And, with Icelandic words that I know, I don't need a grammar because I've focussed too much of my effort on the grammar. I still often need to make use of Icelandic dictionaries. It does depend on context, as Ari implied. Edited by PaulLambeth on 17 November 2011 at 5:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5365 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 40 of 124 17 November 2011 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Sure, it depends on context. I certain agree that not everybody needs to use a dictionary every time they speak or write. Let's not be silly here. Not everybody needs a spell checker in their word processor, but I'm sure lots of people use one. Actually, one of the most common uses of dictionaries was to check spelling and hyphenation. That has been automated. By the same token, most people I know who write academic papers, including myself, ask other people to review their writing. Technically, it's not the same as a dictionary, but I like getting critical comments that induce me to to clarify things, tighten up an argument or even change the wording. I remember well being corrected when I used "erstwhile" instead of "earnest". I may be wrong, but I think that all professional writers have a slew of reference works handy and also have their work reviewed and edited. Would I submit to a journal a paper that has not been spell checked or read by a friend or colleague? Are you kidding? But, obviously, some people do. Would a newspaper like the New York Times or the Guardian send to print an article straight from the word processor of a journalist? I think not. I would certainly concede to Ari that most people don't "need" and never consult a dictionary. Others never consult a grammar book. I do think that in most school systems in the world, learning to write one's native language involves opening a dictionary and a grammar book. Admittedly, after mandatory schooling is over, a large number of people do not need to write more than a 140 character text message and will never need a dictionary or grammar book. But some people still use them. So much so that there is a whole publishing industry around these books. In a similar vein, very few people have encyclopedias today. Does that mean that people don't use them? Of course not. They've gone online. Can one imagine a world without Wikipedia? 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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