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Questions Regarding Arabic | ||
Tags: Choosing a Language | Arabic | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| TalkativeHoopoe Tetraglot Newbie United States Joined 4739 days ago 11 posts - 13 votes Speaks: Spanish, Persian, Pashto*, English | Message 1 of 93 27 November 2011 at 5:29pm | IP Logged |
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Greetings, I'm a new member to these forums and had some questions regarding Arabic. I know there are plenty of threads about the language but I have some questions nonetheless. Plus, some things weren't quite clear to me when searching through some of the other topics.
Arabic is a language I'm interested in, but I'm still not 100% decided. -I understand that there is Modern Standard Arabic, Classical Arabic, and Colloquial Arabic. Which way to learn is better? MSA to Dialect or a Dialect to MSA? -Is MSA actually useful or should I just learn a dialect? Is it true that MSA is considered stilted, dull, and sometimes even ugly? -How mutually intelligible are the multiple dialects? I understand that each dialect is pretty much a different language because they're so different from one another, but how much trouble would it take for native speakers to understand? -If two Arabs from different countries meet, how do they communicate? -Are songs and movies in MSA or dialect? -Will my native languages (Persian and Pashto) help with learning Arabic? -What are the benefits/rewards of learning Arabic? Thanks, TalkativeHoopoe 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4970 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes  Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 2 of 93 27 November 2011 at 6:35pm | IP Logged |
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There have indeed been a few threads recently, and some of this was answered in "Need Help Choosing a Language" in the Advice Center.
I understand that there is Modern Standard Arabic, Classical Arabic, and Colloquial Arabic. Which way to learn is better? MSA to Dialect or a Dialect to MSA? Which way is better is based on the individual, but most agree that MSA to a dialect is the most effective way to learn the language. 1) There are more reliable materials for MSA than there are for the dialects. While there are some dialect courses, many of them fail to go past the basics, and although there are a few good series (like Kalimni Arabi for Egyptian), there is still a considerable larger amount of MSA material. 2) MSA has a clearly stated rules and regularities. Yes, the grammar is complex, sometimes quite different, and there's lots of it, but it does indeed have rules that one can learn and apply. The dialects also have their grammatical features and "rules", but they're generally more "simple" and sometimes don't follow a particular path. Thus, going from a dialect to MSA is usually considerably harder than going from having a solid MSA foundation to a more "free" dialect. 3) It tends to be harder to learn a language if you know how to speak it decently, but not how to write it. In summary, having a foundation in MSA helps you see the strong core and commonalities that the dialects have between each other. However, if you were to learn Syrian and then go to Yemeni, you'd probably feel like your time in Syria was useless for understanding the Yemeni dialect. Indeed, MSA helps. Is MSA actually useful or should I just learn a dialect? Is it true that MSA is considered stilted, dull, and sometimes even ugly? MSA is certainly very useful, but it also depends on your primary goal. If you were to travel to Lebanon for a few weeks, then it would probably be better to learn the basics of the dialect. However, if you're seriously interested in the language, MSA is a must. It's the form used in literature, informative media, and formal speaking. Whether or not MSA sounds stilted often depends on the context. If a native was walking around in a Damascus marketplace, speaking MSA, it would certainly come off as awkward. If a foreigner was doing the same thing, it would be acceptable, but it doesn't mean it's not funky anyways. Also, it depends on which country you go to. Egyptians sometimes have a reputation for chuckling at MSA being spoken on the streets, while Syrians are associated with having more pride in MSA and Classical Arabic. When Arabs hear a generally standard Arabic being spoken on the news, documentaries, or historical films, MSA doesn't necessarily sound awkward -- it's the usual for them to hear MSA in that context. In literature, MSA is also considered very beautiful and poetic, not quite stilted at all. In general, I've rarely heard anybody call MSA "ugly", even in the situations it would be considered stilted. If you want to experience the full glory of Arabic, both MSA and a dialect are necessary. Without MSA, you won't have access to the bountiful literature or understanding of affairs and information. Without a dialect, you won't usually get that joke that the cab driver just said or how to have a telephone conversation. I remember reading once that MSA and Classical Arabic are for "power, history, and unity", while the dialects are of "intimacy and domesticity." I agree. How mutually intelligible are the multiple dialects? I understand that each dialect is pretty much a different language because they're so different from one another, but how much trouble would it take for native speakers to understand? In my experience, more dialects are intelligible than there are unintelligible ones, for many reasons. Egyptian is highly intelligible throughout much of the Arab World, since it's the leading dialect in popular media such as music and films. The same can be said of Levantine as well. Between Egyptian and Levantine, speakers usually find each other quite intelligible, partly because 1) the dialects are not too different from one another, but also because 2) they're exposed to each other's dialects quite well. If you were to somehow subtract the media exposure, they'd have a little more trouble understanding each other, though it certainly wouldn't be even close to impossible. I've met many Levantine speakers that have minimal trouble with Iraqi, Gulf, and Saudi dialects as well, though these may be a little harder than Egyptian. Yemeni and Sudanese are harder to explain. I met some Egyptians who stated that Yemeni was slightly harder for them than Hijazi and Gulf dialects, but not too hard, and similar cases with Levantine speakers. Sudanese is not too distant from Egyptian either, and I've witnessed several cases when a Sudanese person and an Egyptian would be carrying on a meaningful conversation without sacrificing much in their respective dialects, and many times that was the case with those of the Levant as well. In general, Middle Easterners tend to understand each other very well, thanks to still having several commonalities and because of exposure. The main issue come sup between these "Mashriqi" dialects and the Maghrebi dialects (Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, and Libyan). I've met some Arabs that state they feel that Moroccan is simply not Arabic, because they can understand very little of their "pure" dialect. However, those Maghrebi speakers typically understand Egyptians and Levantine speakers, thanks to exposure. In this case, if it weren't for exposure, Moroccans would probably have just as hard of a time understanding Syrian as a Syrian would generally have with Moroccan. Libyan seems to be an interesting case however, especially the eastern Libyan dialects. I've met some Mashriqis that said they could understand much of Libyan, even though it's under the Maghrebi umbrella. I personally found that I could also understand most of the Libyan dialect with my knowledge of the Mashriqi dialects, but I have much more trouble with the other Maghrebi dialects. In all, it doesn't surprise me that the Middle Eastern dialects are collectively called "Arabic" and not separate languages. However, the divide between them and the North African dialects is another case. Take note, however, that just because native speakers can communicate pretty well, it doesn't mean that non-natives have an easy time learning several dialects. Going from MSA to your first dialect is not effortless. Although the dialect is very accessible (especially if it's not Maghrebi), it still requires some exposure and practice to acquire decent proficiency. However, once you have MSA and a dialect under your belt, acquiring other dialects becomes much easier (though still not "effortless"). I moved from MSA to Egyptian, and Levantine didn't take much time for me to feel comfortable with. From Levantine to Iraqi and Saudi, it was somewhat even more approachable. If two Arabs from different countries meet, how do they communicate? This is more complicated. Typically, Arabs from two different areas would try to use their respective dialects to communicate. A Lebanese person will often do just fine speaking in his dialect to an Egyptian and being understood. However, if the differences are more drastic, such as between Iraqi and Algerian, the case would be different. The dialects on their own are generally unintelligible, but they don't just resort to MSA. They'll often find a "common" dialect or medium through which to communicate, often mixing their dialects to where they can communicate, with some MSA thrown in for solid comprehension. Sometimes, depending on the individual, the two speakers might resort to a totally different language, like French or English, for example. Typically, Arabic speakers can find a way to communicate well with each other. Are songs and movies in MSA or dialect? Many of the modern songs such as pop and other genres are in dialects -- Egyptian and Levantine, specifically Lebanese -- being the most popular. A few singers, however, such as Kazem Al Sahar, sing in MSA however, and traditional songs such as "Nasheeds" are often in the standard or classical language as well. Typically, national songs, anthems, etc. are in standard Arabic. Movies are mostly in dialects, but historical movies and documentaries (such as Omar al-Mukhtar, etc.) are in MSA. On TV, many dramas are in their respective dialects, while news broadcasts are MSA. Talk shows are a curious bunch. While the host may speak in a relatively standard Arabic, the guests often speak their respective dialect. Will my native languages (Persian and Pashto) help with learning Arabic? I only have experience with Persian. Persian and Arabic are not related languages, but you'll find that there is a notable amount of vocabulary shared between the two languages. That would be a help, but it wouldn't be as considerable as say, Spanish knowledge would help with Italian. What are the benefits/rewards of learning Arabic? Well, it depends on your own personal interests. However, knowing Arabic opens you to a literary and cultural treasure chest: stories, poems, and a bounty of other works in their original language. Plus, what's more satisfying than communicating with native speakers? Edited by Humdereel on 27 November 2011 at 6:58pm 22 persons have voted this message useful | |
| TalkativeHoopoe Tetraglot Newbie United States Joined 4739 days ago 11 posts - 13 votes Speaks: Spanish, Persian, Pashto*, English | Message 3 of 93 27 November 2011 at 11:59pm | IP Logged |
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Thanks for the thorough answer, Humdereel.
I have a few more questions: I've heard people comparing the Arabic dialects like this: MSA = Latin Dialects = Like Spanish, French, Romanian, German Also, I've heard that MSA and Modern Hebrew are more intelligible than the Arabic dialects. This seems wrong based on your answer, but is it? Also, what dialect would you recommend learning? How does the Arabic dialect situation compare to Chinese? Thanks. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4970 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 5 of 93 28 November 2011 at 1:34am | IP Logged |
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The Romance language analogy is not the best one, especially with the ones you listed. The dialects are far more intelligibile (for the most part) than Spanish is with French and Romanian and German, in any of these combinations.
Also, take note that MSA, although not spoken everyday in informal contexts, is not a dead language, it is very much a living language. Also, most native speakers of a modern Romance language do not understand Latin, while most native Arabic speakers have at least a passive understanding of MSA. Of course, this is because MSA is part of their everyday lives through news, information, etc., but even if that wasn't the case it would be unlikely that they wouldn't understand at least much of what was being said. Some have compared MSA's role to Latin's role many centuries ago, which is more plausible, but even then there are some flaws to the analogy. If the dialects are to be compared to Romance languages, it would be more likely be the Spanish-Portuguese-Italian relationship, not Spanish-French-Romanian or anything like that. Where did German come from? The situation isn't really that drastic. If French was part of the analogy, it would be from the Mashriq dialects to the Maghrebi dialects, but even then it could be considered a tad exaggerated. Also, Romance languages tend to function differently. Each (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc.) has its own written and spoken register. Arabic dialects are almost strictly spoken, and they work in a way like a dialect continuum -- geographically close dialects are fairly to extremely intelligible, while those at opposite ends or greater distances -- such as Iraqi and Moroccan -- share limited intelligibility. Thus, the way Arabs use Arabic works much like a spectrum. They won't usually use 100% dialect or 100% MSA, but rather a mixture of them, and if two incomprehensible dialects are trying to speak to each other, they'll simply modify the speech so that it can be understood. This isn't the case with Spanish and Italian, at least in my experience. I have several Italian-speaking friends and I never just "modify" my Spanish so that they can understand me. Of course, if I had a written script of what they were to say to me, it would seem more intelligible. Spanish and Portuguese is among the better anaologies. However, it also depends on which Portuguese is being used. But we must also consider, that the definition of language and dialect is not rigid. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but: Luxembourgish is quite intelligible with German, but they're labeled as different languages. Also, look at Bulgarian and Macedonian; Swedish and Norwegian; the languages of what was previously Yugoslavia; and I remember reading that Thai and Lao are also quite intelligible. Again, if I was wrong about any of these, someone please correct me. My point is that sometimes languages are classified politically rather than just linguistically. As for the Arabic and Hebrew comparison, that is indeed plain nonsense. The Semitic languages, for some reason, are more distant from one another than some of the Romance languages. If you're proficient in Arabic, you will not understand anything in Hebrew. Maybe you'll notice a few common words or catch a similar phrase, but nothing susbtantial enough to be considered "intelligible." Even if you were to expose yourself constantly to Hebrew, knowing only Arabic would not get you anywhere, UNLESS you were actually studying Hebrew. With the dialects, once you know one, the others come relatively easily (but remember, not effortlessly), with exposure and a little practice. Not even the Mashriqi-Maghrebi gap is so horrendous to be compared to Arabic and Hebrew. How does the Arabic dialect situation compare to Chinese? I have no substantial experience with Chinese (so please, someone correct me if I'm wrong). However, here's what I've collected by reading this forum and other sources: many of the Chinese "dialects" (Cantonese, Min, Wu, etc.) are not intelligible linguistically speaking. If you only knew Mandarin, you wouldn't understand a different "dialect" unless you decided to study it. If a person was a native speaker of Cantonese but somehow didn't get educated on Mandarin, they would not find Mandarin intelligible. I'm guessing knowledge of Mandarin would help with "discounts", but I think that exposure alone wouldn't do the trick. Of course, I'm guessing it depends on which you are talking about. In general, the different Chinese languages/dialects are linguistically distinct enough to be considered different languages, but since they're not typically written and not considered standard, they're considered dialects politically speaking. With this, it seems to me that Arabic cannot be considered a macrolanguage in the same way that Chinese is. While most of the Arabic dialects are reasonably intelligible, most of the Chinese ones are not. Again, someone with experience with a Chinese language, please correct me if I'm wrong. What dialect do you recommend learning? The one you are most interested in, even if it's Maghrebi. However, if you're not particularly attracted to one more than the other, than I'd recommend either Egyptian or Levantine. They are the most widely understood and most prominent in popular media (music, film, TV, etc.), and are not too distant from one another either. Plus, there's more material in these dialects than there are in Iraqi, Gulf, Hijazi, Maghrebi, etc. However, if you have an amazing passion for Morocco or Algeria, there's nothing wrong with focusing on their dialects. Just be aware that they are not understood widely outside of the Maghreb. After reading all this, you must be thinking, "Arabic seems like a mess." But trust me, Arabic is not as much of a monster as it is sometimes made out to be. It's definitely a challenging language that requires motivation and dedication, but it's nowhere near impossible. Edited by Humdereel on 28 November 2011 at 1:45am 12 persons have voted this message useful | |
| jiajia Newbie China Joined 4850 days ago 17 posts - 26 votes Speaks: Mandarin* | Message 6 of 93 28 November 2011 at 4:45am | IP Logged |
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Humdereel, you really gave a detailed answer, may I trouble you for 3 more questions? Thanks!
1, Is there a big difference between MSA and CA (Classical Arabic)? 2, If I were more curious to know what happened in the region of UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait etc (I like listening to Lebanese songs too), do you think Gulf Arabic would be a better choice compared to Lebanese Arabic? 3, If you didn't have the opportunity to learn almost all languages (Arabic, Persian/Farsi, Turkish) of the Middle East, if you could only choose one of them, then which language would you most like to learn? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| moonjun Bilingual Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4796 days ago 8 posts - 17 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin* Studies: Korean | Message 7 of 93 28 November 2011 at 1:15pm | IP Logged |
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Chinese dialects are not so close that people can comprehend each other, especially for
geographically distant parts' dialects. However, the knowledge of 1 dialect + full immersion for a few month will usually lead one to be fluent in any 1 dialect. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4970 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 8 of 93 29 November 2011 at 12:24am | IP Logged |
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Is there a big difference between MSA and CA (Classical Arabic)?
I wouldn't say there's a "big" difference. MSA is essentially Classical Arabic with the addition of modern words that don't exist in CA (airplane, computer, medical terminology, etc.). Some of the vocabulary has shifted its meanings, some words in CA are considered more archaic, and CA also has a different style in much of the works it is used in. However, CA is quite accessible if you learned MSA, and vice versa. However, if you're mainly interested in CA, then go straight to studying CA. If I were more curious to know what happened in the region of UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait etc (I like listening to Lebanese songs too), do you think Gulf Arabic would be a better choice compared to Lebanese Arabic? I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that you're more interested in the culture and music associated with Gulf Arabic? Or the events? If you're interested most in the Gulf region, then Gulf Arabic would be the dialect I'd recommend for you. Just remember that there is generally less music coming from the Gulf area than Egypt and the Levant. However, its presence in Arab media is certainly increasing. In short: if interested in the Gulf, Gulf Arabic is recommended. If you didn't have the opportunity to learn almost all languages (Arabic, Persian/Farsi, Turkish) of the Middle East, if you could only choose one of them, then which language would you most like to learn? Well, I've been happy to actually reach proficiency in each of those languages over the past several years, but if I hadn't, which would I choose? Well, I am a strong believer that you should learn the language that captivates you the most. And admittedly, for me it was Arabic that first captured my heart, so that's what I would've studied had I not been able to do all three. However, I love each of them dearly, so I couldn't imagine not having studied them all. However, if you've fallen in love with Turkish or Persian, go with one of them instead. Persian, like Arabic, is a cultural and literary treasure chest, and a beautiful spoken language as well. Turkish is also very beautiful and literature has begun having a larger presence with it as well. If you were learning a language for "strategic" importance, than any of them would do, IMO. Take note that learning any language requires motivation and dedication. Arabic is no exception, and I wouldn't recommend learning it unless truly interested in it, since it is definitely a challenging language that could take time to reach some level of proficiency. In short: the language that captivated me the most. @moonjun: Thanks for clearing that up. So, basically, many of the dialects are unintelligible, but immersion and practice in a different one helps greatly with learning another. Thanks, again. :-) 6 persons have voted this message useful |
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