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Questions Regarding Arabic | ||
Tags: Choosing a Language | Arabic | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4970 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes  Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 73 of 93 28 December 2011 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Excellent additional insights, Xaled, great to have a native speaker discuss in this thread.
I can't wait to read what you have to say about the differences between the Western and Eastern dialects, since out of all the dialects, I have the least experience with the Maghrebi variants. Plus, I think Maghrebi is generally mysterious to this forum in general, since it's rarely been discussed in detail. :-) EDIT: @KSAKSA: I haven't watched Al Midaq Alley, but have read Mahfouz's "Zuqaq al-Midaq" and found it to be quite an interesting story. I'll probably try finding the movie somewhere. Edited by Humdereel on 28 December 2011 at 7:42pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| xaled Tetraglot Newbie Morocco Joined 4707 days ago 9 posts - 31 votes Speaks: Arabic (classical), Arabic (Maghribi)*, French, EnglishC2 Studies: Spanish, Japanese | Message 74 of 93 28 December 2011 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
The first question is a bit difficult for me, because, i can't put myself in your shoes entirely. For us native speakers, we don't have difficulties understanding their Darija, because, we understand standard Arabic and French, and because we have been exposed to Tunisian since our childhood via media, (for my generation, we used to watch some Tunisian kids shows :D). Of course Moroccan and Tunisian alongside with other Maghrebi dialects (except for Hassani) have a lot in common, but they aren't the same. For us Moroccans, Tunisian is some sort of Maghrebi with a touch of eastern dialects. So if you want to learn Tunisian i don't think that learning Moroccan first is a good idea.. I think that you should toggle directly to Tunisian. But, if you don't find any materials, I think the other possible approach is to learn Fus7a Arabic, with some knowledge of French and a lot of exposure. But, this approach is harder, simply because dialects compared to Arabic are very poor and easy. For the book that you mentioned, sorry i don't know about Arabic learning materials. Edited by xaled on 28 December 2011 at 9:04pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| BioCatLan Newbie United States Joined 4708 days ago 3 posts - 4 votes Speaks: English* | Message 75 of 93 29 December 2011 at 6:49am | IP Logged | |||||
So did you think it was difficult? I'm doing science and trying to learn Arabic on my own, and I had 1 Egyptian friend but then he had to move back to Egypt. I find it so hard to do science and Arabic, kind of like I want to give up. But it's just such a fascinating language, I keep trying, but I just don't feel like I can get very far, or even be able to study abroad like you did. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| KSAKSA Groupie Australia Joined 5137 days ago 65 posts - 99 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Arabic (Gulf) | Message 76 of 93 29 December 2011 at 6:59am | IP Logged | |||||
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^^ BioCatLan...just on your final sentence, don't give up! Sometimes things can be very frustrating when learning a language...and sometimes you even need to lay the language down for a little while while life events take priority...but if it is something you love for sure you will find a way to pursue it.
It may seems right now that you won't be able to study abroad but you never know what marvellous opportunity may present itself to you...either soon or in a few years. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| xaled Tetraglot Newbie Morocco Joined 4707 days ago 9 posts - 31 votes Speaks: Arabic (classical), Arabic (Maghribi)*, French, EnglishC2 Studies: Spanish, Japanese | Message 77 of 93 29 December 2011 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Maghrebi & Mashreqi
Arabic and its dialects have a complex love-hate relationship. Imagine Arabic as box full of items and linguistic elements, and each dialect took some elements, and deformed it. Even though, perhaps 80% of the Arabic elements in dialects is common, the other 20% trace it root to Arabic but to different vocabs or some unusual words with limited usage, or words with altered meanings. However, dialects vocabularies are generally very poor compared to Arabic. Sometimes some restraint terms become general in dialects, for example: black in Moroccan is (k7al/ka7la), but, in Arabic it's (aswad/sawdaa').. this doesn't mean that (k7al) isn't Arabic, (ak7al/ka7laa') describe the blackness of eyes or eyelashes. Nowadays, it's still used to describe eye beauty in Arabic and its dialects including Moroccan. Another example: "to ask" in north Morocco is (Sa9Sa) it's from the Arabic verb (ista9Sa) which means to investigate or to probe. Another analogy, but a scientific one, the Genographic project of NG, they trace the human migrations, by analyzing the diversity of DNA across the world. The more diverse the DNA is the older the human settlement in that region is. The idea is, when a group of people migrate they take with them a part of their diversity, and progressively migration after migration, the diversity become uniformity. But, this analogy isn't quite perfect, because, after all dialects are not isolated from each other, it's as Humdereel said like a spectrum. They aren't isolated neither from Arabic. The understandability between dialects doesn't depends only on the geographical distance between them, it depends also on other factors: * The degree of other languages influence; Arabic as a native language hasn't been spread to the east, but, it has been spread to the west, replacing Coptic, Berber, Latin in Andalusia and other African languages. Therefore, it's more deformed and influenced by other languages in west than in east. For example, the verbs in Maghrebi may follow some sort of Arabic structure (Awzaan), and may also have prefixes and postfixes and keep the root unchanged, which is generally a loan word. * There is also the modern language influence, which for some reason is stronger in the Maghreb than in the Mashreq. The word cheese in most of Arab dialect is a derivation from the Arabic (Jubn), but, in the Maghreb, (Jben) describe the traditional goat cheese, and the French word "fromage" describes kinds of cheese like The Laughing Cow. In some regions the Spanish word "queso" describes the red cheese. May be this strong influence is due to the flexibility in Maghrebi dialects to absorb and adapt new terms from other languages. * The way the dialect is spoken and its speed, of course, this is common with other languages. * The media exposure, and this factor is very crucial, for example, I understand the majority of Mashreqi dialects thanks to TV, but i don't understand Hassani, even though it's geographically nearer (there is in Morocco regions where Hassani is spoken natively). Hassani dialects have some Bedouin linguistic elements that are found also in the peninsula and in Libya. I have some friends from Mauritania who were studying with us, first when the came to Morocco, we couldn't communicate with our dialects, so we used to talk in Arabic until they managed to pick up Moroccan. Based on my knowledge in French and Spanish, I can say that Moroccan and Egyptian are more or less as far from each others as French and Spanish are. That why we should not be able to understand each others. I know some friends from westernized families, who can't understand Egyptian, simply because they watch more French channels than Arabic ones. 8 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 newyorkeric Diglot Moderator Singapore Joined 6371 days ago 1598 posts - 2174 votes Speaks: English*, Italian Studies: Mandarin, Malay Personal Language Map | Message 78 of 93 29 December 2011 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
Wow, considering your native languages are Persian and Pashto, your English is very natural and can pass for native level. Please do tell us your secrets. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| SmilingStraw Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4902 days ago 35 posts - 37 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 79 of 93 29 December 2011 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
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@Xaled: Cool, thanks!
May I ask, what exactly is it that makes Egyptian and Moroccan as distinct as French and Spanish. From what I can tell, although Spanish and French are bth Romance languages, they differ a lot in many things. Does Moroccan also have a completely different grammar, major changes in vocab etc.? Or would it be more like Spanish and Portuguese. They are very similar, but most Spanish speakers I've met have a lot of trouble listening to spoken Portuguese 9depending on he Portuguese). Thx a lot! :D 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4970 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 80 of 93 29 December 2011 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
It wasn't easy, but it wasn't impossible. I think it's a lot about finding out a way to manage your time, which can be difficult but can certainly be planned out. Better yet, I just recommend that you find little ways to incorporate Arabic into your daily life. For example, whenever learning vocabulary, start recognizing items or subjects in their Arabic terms. For example, if you see a car, think "sayaara", etc. Better yet, whenever you get to learn some basic grammar, try to create sentences in your head such as describing a red car or an old house, etc. This doesn't take a lot of time, but it helps keep Arabic in your head until you get to finally find a time to study the language. Don't give up. Learning any language on your own can be quite challenging, especially when you already have other responsibilities, but after that potentially long road, you'll feel very rewarded. EDIT: Studying abroad may come soon or later on, as KSAKSA stated. When I was studying Arabic, I had no idea whatsoever that I'd have an opportunity in Egypt. Edited by Humdereel on 29 December 2011 at 6:16pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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