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Cantonese Odyssey 2012 -Team 龍 | ||
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| zhanglong Senior Member United States Joined 4931 days ago 322 posts - 427 votes  Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 1 of 67 27 November 2011 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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In my quixotic quest to learn a language that is considered "impossible" to learn, I
continue my commitment to learn Cantonese. In three month's time, I want to be at least A2 level of listening comprehension. The only material I will formally study is: Pimsleur Cantonese, lessons 01 through 30 Teach Yourself Cantonese, 2nd Edition Among the many challenges in studying Cantonese are the number of tones, (between six and nine depending upon who you ask), the lack of a formal written language, the two character systems for transcribing speech (simplified or traditional characters) and the dizzying array of transcription systems ( jyutping, yale, lau, meyer-wempe, guangdong, ipa, etc) Below is the vocabulary I will learn from Chapter One of the TYC text. I will choose to learn the Traditional character set used in Hong Kong and Taiwan, as well as use the jyutping romanization system (with the IPA being a handy backup). I have found a Mandarin and Cantonese instructor who is a native speaker of both languages so in our sessions, I will use traditional characters and IPA. So off we go! Vocabulary for this week: zou2 san4 [ tsɔw˧˥ sɐn˨˩ ] | IE | good morning | Yale: [ jóu sàhn / jou2 san4 ] | Lau: [ jo2 san4 ] [ 早晨 ] wong4 [ wɔːŋ˨˩ ] | N | a surname; Wong | Yale: [ wòhng / wong4 ] | Lau: [ wong4 ] [ 王 ] sin1 saang1 [ siːn˥˧ sɑːŋ˥˧ ] | N | Mr, Sir, gentleman, husband | Yale: [ sìn sàang / sin1 saang1 ] | Lau: [ sin1 saang1 ] [ 先生 ] zoeng1 [ tsœːŋ˥˧ ] | N | a surname; Cheung | Yale: [ jèung / jeung1 ] | Lau: [ jeung1 ] [ 張 ] siu2 ze2 [ siw˧˥ tsɛː˧˥ ] | N | Miss, young lady | Yale: [ síu jé / siu2 je2 ] | Lau: [ siu2 je2 ] [ 小姐 ] nei5 [ nej˩˧ ] | PN | you | Yale: [ néih / nei5 ] | Lau: [ nei5 ] [ 你 ] hou2 [ hɔw˧˥ ] | SV | very; well, fine, OK, nice, good | Yale: [ hóu / hou2 ] | Lau: [ ho2 ] [ 好 ] maa3 [ mɑː˧ ] | P | a word that makes a sentence into a question | Yale: [ ma / ma3 ] | Lau: [ maa3 ] [ 嗎 ] ngo5 [ ŋɔː˩˧ ] | PN | I, me | Yale: [ ngóh / ngo5 ] | Lau: [ ngoh5 ] [ 我 ] ne1 [ nɛː˥ ] | P | a word that repeats the same question about a different matter. | Yale: [ nē / ne1 ] | Lau: [ ne1 ] [ 呢 ] taai3 taai2 [ tʰɑj˧ tʰɑj˧˥ ] | N | Mrs., wife, married woman | Yale: [ taai táai / taai3 taai2 ] | Lau: [ taai3 taai2 ] [ 太太 ] keoi5 [ kʰɵɥ˩˧ ] | PN | she, her, he, him, it | Yale: [ kéuih / keui5 ] | Lau: [ kui5 ] [ 佢 ] dou1 [ tɔw˥ ] | A | also | Yale: [ dōu / dou1 ] | Lau: [ do1 ] [ 都 ] jau5 sam1 [ jɐw˩˧ sɐm˥˧ ] | IE | kind of you to ask | Yale: [ yáuh sàm / yau5 sam1 ] | Lau: [ jau5 sam1 ] [ 有心 ] Edited by zhanglong on 02 January 2012 at 8:40pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6584 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 2 of 67 28 November 2011 at 7:20am | IP Logged | ||
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I love it when people are learning Cantonese!
Quick tip: The "nei5 hou2 maa3" phrase is simply not used by native speakers. It appears in textbooks of Mandarin as a translation of "How do you do", but it's not really used in Mandarin, either. That they include it in Cantonese learning materials is doubly strange, as the particle "maa3" simply isn't used in Canto. The common particle for making a statement into a question is "me1" (can't write characters here, but it's a mouth radical with a sheep (yang2/yeong4) on the right). Still, "Nei5 hou2 me1" sounds just as weird, as it's just nothing one would say. The way to ask someone how they are is "dim2 aa3", but that's quite familiar. You don't ask strangers how they're doing, as it's a personal question. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| egill Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5698 days ago 418 posts - 791 votes Speaks: Mandarin, English* Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 3 of 67 29 November 2011 at 7:36am | IP Logged | ||
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I noticed you're transcribing the high-falling tone, e.g. 心 [sɐm˥˧]. As you may already
know, in a lot of the Cantonese you're likely to hear (most notably that of Hong Kong) the high-falling tone has merged with the high-level tone—in fact I don't think Jyutping even marks the difference. If you didn't already know this, don't be surprised. Good luck with your studies! 加油！ 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| zhanglong Senior Member United States Joined 4931 days ago 322 posts - 427 votes Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 4 of 67 30 November 2011 at 12:40am | IP Logged | ||
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加油! 多謝嗮!
Ari, thanks for the tip about colloquial Cantonese versus book-learnin'. I hope to battle-test everything I learn with native speakers in the little time I have left here. What's interesting is that even in Guangdong province, they speak Cantonese with so many different accents. That's not even mentioning the varieties of local languages that are similar to, but not exactly the same as Cantonese, such as the Taishan, Jiamen, and other Yue dialects. Egill, I transcribed the vocabulary noting the 7th tone for historical purposes, but I really don't want to learn more tones than necessary to be understood. I find that most native speakers don't think much, if at all, about grammar. If I ask three different natives "how many tones are there in Cantonese?" I will probably get five different answers. Other postings of vocabulary I'll make will just use traditional characters, jyutping, and IPA. All the other transcriptions are overkill at this point in my studies. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| strikingstar Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5175 days ago 292 posts - 444 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, Cantonese, Swahili Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written) | Message 5 of 67 01 December 2011 at 9:29pm | IP Logged | ||
Actually, 嗎 is used in Canto. For e.g. 唔係啊嗎 (accompanied by a healthy dose of mock surprise). 你好唔好 or 你好冇 is better than 你好嗎. If you say 你好咩, you are actually expressing doubt that the person you're addressing is actually doing fine. Or if you truly want to be Canto, say 食咗飯未. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| smallwhite Pentaglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5310 days ago 537 posts - 1045 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish | Message 6 of 67 02 December 2011 at 5:48am | IP Logged | ||
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nei5 hou2 maa3 你好嗎 is used. Nothing wrong or strange about it.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| zhanglong Senior Member United States Joined 4931 days ago 322 posts - 427 votes Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 7 of 67 02 December 2011 at 6:53am | IP Logged | ||
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Day 06:
I just received an offer from CantoneseClass101 to join their network for a small monthly fee. I am curious about it because it would be nice to have a support system in place for continued practice of the language, but I'm not at all confident it is worth it. Does anyone on the forum have any opinions about them? Study progress: I am less than three hours away from finishing my Pimsleur Cantonese. Later today, I'll practice what I've learned with a native speaker and get their opinion of my accent. If they at least understand what I'm *trying* to say, then the week will have been good. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6584 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 8 of 67 02 December 2011 at 7:15am | IP Logged | ||
That's a different "maa3" (sorry, can't write honzi at work). It's not really an interrogative particle. Actually, this particle is used in some places in Mandarin, written with a mouth radical and a "maa4" from "maa4faan4", so that's how I usually write it in Canto as well. But some people use the 嗎 character and that's just as correct. But I don't think it's the same 嗎. It's not a question particle. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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