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Mainly Mandarin-(yet another Chinese log) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6585 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 33 of 74 27 December 2011 at 9:57am | IP Logged | ||
The 她 character is actually a recent (early 1900s) invention. In Classical Chinese 他 means both "he" and "she". The character was invented for gender equality reasons, since one didn't want people to assume masculinity. This is sort of funny in light of recent movements in Western languages to create gender-neutral pronouns. Interesting tidbits: Cantonese only has a single character for "keoi5" (he/she/it): 佢. In Taiwan, it's common to go further and use a specific character for "ta1" when referring to animals: 牠. There's also a special "ni3" for female "you": 妳, though I don't think that's universally used. By the way, I believe 美國 and 英國 are actually derived from the English "America" and "England". Specifically, the "mei" comes from the "me" in "America" and the "ying" comes from "Eng" in "England". 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| liddytime Pentaglot Senior Member United States mainlymagyar.wordpre Joined 6232 days ago 693 posts - 1328 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Galician Studies: Hungarian, Vietnamese, Modern Hebrew, Norwegian, Persian, Arabic (Written) | Message 34 of 74 02 January 2012 at 3:44am | IP Logged | ||
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Xīn Nián Kuài Lè! 新年快乐!
Xīn Nián Kuài Lè (新年快乐) everyone! Xin Nian (新年) is “New Year”. Xin is new and Nian is year. Kuai le (快樂) is happiness, joy, delight, or rejoicings. So "Happy New Year" in English is "New Year Happy" in Chinese: Xīn Nián Kuài Lè! :-) So, a new year, new goals. Well, not so much “new” goals, but I am changing my approach a little bit. Nothing is changing with Pimsleur. I’m still plugging away at finishing a lesson every day or two until I am finished with all 90 lessons. 1/3 done! I am, however, moving away from the FSI/DLI Standard Chinese, a Modular approach and substituting the DLI Basic Course ( available here: http://jlu.wbtrain.com/sumtotal/language/DLI%20basic%20cours es/Chinese%20Mandarin/ ) . Why you may ask? The DLI course is slightly more current (1989 compared with 1983) but has better quality recordings. The material between the two is nearly identical until the latter half of the DLI course where it really takes off in terms of depth compared with the Standard course. The major difference that I have found is in the recordings. The overwhelming majority of the FSI/DLI Standard Chinese recordings are in English whereas the DLI Basic Course recordings are almost all in Mandarin. With such little time to devote to daily language studies, I need it to count! I need to be immersed in Mandarin, not English. Here is where the DLI Basic Course comes through. These recordings were developed for the DLI officers so they could immerse themselves in Mandarin outside of class. Thus, they were able to increase their exposure from 6 hours a day (classroom alone) to around 9 hours a day (classroom plus tapes) . So, for the standard 80 week program, the homework tapes would bring them from a total course-load of 2400 hours (assuming 30 hours a week) to 3600 (assuming 45 hours a week). Recall the minimum 2400 hours of study required for competence in a “Level IV” language such as Chinese. The DLI Basic Course tapes consist mostly of a relentless barrage of Mandarin spoken at natural speed (read: FAST!!!) with various accents of varying intelligibility to my novice ear. Quite the challenge, I must confess! I’m starting with Unit 7 which is about the same corresponding level to where I left off with the FSI course. My goal is to master a MINIMUM of one unit a week x 26 weeks which would put me at Unit 33 in July. That is about 65% of the way through the entire course which should give me a pretty good command of spoken Mandarin by this Summer. I have also been resistant to a well known method of learning the Chinese writing system called : Remembering the Hanzi: How Not to Forget the Meaning and Writing of Chinese Characters by James W. Heisig. : http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Simplified-Hanzi-Meaning-C haracters/dp/0824833236 http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/publications/miscPublications/Rem embering%20Hanzi%201.htm This book teaches the most common 1500 characters using stories and mnemonics so as to cement the meaning and method of writing each character in the students’ heads. I have been resistant to using this method but so many of my peers have enthusiastically recommended it, that I decided to take a look at it. My main critique of this method is that it does not teach the “sounds” associated with each character, only the “meaning” of the character. This is INTENTIONAL for the method to work. It separates speaking and writing. This is something completely foreign to me, a native speaker of English, where a word’s pronunciation is forever linked with its written form! I had always wondered why Chinese programming is always broadcasted alongside Chinese character subtitles. It now makes sense. “Written Chinese” is almost identical whether it is Mandarin, Cantonese, Wu, Hakka, Min, Xiang or Gan ( some of the mutually unintelligible dialects of spoken Chinese) . The way each character is pronounced by these different dialects is completely different. A Mandarin speaker would probably have no clue what a Cantonese speaker was saying to him, but if he wrote it down, it would be perfectly clear! (assuming the Mandarin speaker had knowledge of the Traditional character set...) This course teaches the meaning of each of the character and links it to a little story so it is not forgotten. Some students claimed they have learned 1500 characters in 4 weeks using this method. The link between the character and its sound comes later in the learning process after the student has more of a spoken vocabulary. That is, after all, how we all learned our native languages. Who learns to write their language before they can speak it?? So, OK, I’ll give it a try. The material does go fairly fast so I should be able to master the 55 lessons by July. ... examples thanks to Dr Heisig: # 22 唱 sing This one is easy! You have one mouth making no noise (the choirmaster) and two mouths with wagging tongues (the mini- mum for a chorus). So when you hear the key word sing, think of the Vienna Boys’ Choir or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and the character is yours forever. [11] #46 下 below Here we see our famous magic wand hanging, all on its own, below the ceiling, as you probably already guessed would hap- pen. In addition to giving us two new characters, the two shapes in this and the preceding frame also serve to illustrate the difference between the primitive meanings for ceiling and floor: it all depends on whether the single horizontal line stands above or below the primitive element to which it is related. [3] If I have any spare moment to relax (slim chance) through all this. I’ll attempt to do a little bit of Beginning Chinese Reader. I found recordings that follow the text - word for word. It is nice to listen and follow along with the text. It helps with my rapid character recognition and comprehension and it is (believe it or not) somewhat relaxing! OK THEN! Updated schedule! Pimsleur Mandarin Chinese II and III : one unit every 1-2 days DLI Basic Course : one lesson a week - minimum Remembering the Hanzi: two lessons a week Beginning Chinese Reader : bonus with free time Find Chinese conversation partners once the new semester commences 1-2 x / week 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6585 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 35 of 74 02 January 2012 at 7:54am | IP Logged | ||
No no no, don't fall into this trap! This is a common misconception, even amongst Mandarin speakers. The reality is that all speakers of non-Mandarin sintic languages are forced (in China by law and in Hong Kong by social pressure) to write in Mandarin. Almost all books in Hong Kong are written in Mandarin and any literate Cantonese speaker can read Mandarin, even if they can't speak it. There are, however, texts written in Cantonese, and these texts are usually hard to understand for a Mandarin speaker. There's a reason why there's one Wikipedia in Mandarin and another in Cantonese. Cantonese is different from Mandarin in both grammar and vocabulary, and written Cantonese uses many characters unknown to Mandarin speakers (and doesn't use many characters that Mandarin uses). Example Mandarin: 這樣寫才是國語，那樣是不對的 (Writing this way is Mandarin, that way of writing is wrong) Example Cantonese: 噉樣寫先係粵語，嗰樣係唔啱嘅 (Writing this way is Cantonese, that way of writing is wrong) As you can see, the difference is quite profound, and there are several characters in the Cantonese that would stump a Mandarin speaker (噉, 嗰, 唔, 啱, 嘅), and some that are used in a different way (先, 係). Written Cantonese has existed since the Ming dynasty and it's today used in comic books, on web forums, in text messages, in some gossipy news columns, in advertising and whenever something is means to be read aloud (such as movie scripts). There is still a strong pressure, however, for written Cantonese to have to be "sanctioned" by either light content or close ties to spoken language. Writing a college textbook in the native language of the students is unthinkable because of this diglossia, just like you wouldn't write it in dialect in an Arabic country. For other sintic languages it's even worse, as no written form has been commonly adapted, so in many cases speakers are unable to write their native language. Needless to say, the Chinese government is not hurrying to develop and standardise a writing system for non-Mandarin languages, meaning these people can either write in Mandarin or not at all. See this article for a more in-depth view. Edited by Ari on 02 January 2012 at 7:59am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| liddytime Pentaglot Senior Member United States mainlymagyar.wordpre Joined 6232 days ago 693 posts - 1328 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Galician Studies: Hungarian, Vietnamese, Modern Hebrew, Norwegian, Persian, Arabic (Written) | Message 36 of 74 03 January 2012 at 3:10am | IP Logged | ||
Awwwww man! Just when you think you are going to get a "freebie" in Chinese ... NUTS! :-) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6585 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 37 of 74 03 January 2012 at 7:03am | IP Logged | ||
Sorry, man, no free lunches. There are, however, a large amount of vocabulary overlap between the languages and the characters do make learning this a lot easier. The formal register of Cantonese is very close to Mandarin, since all books are written that way. So technical vocab is the same. The colloquial language spoken every day on the street, however, is vastly different. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| liddytime Pentaglot Senior Member United States mainlymagyar.wordpre Joined 6232 days ago 693 posts - 1328 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Galician Studies: Hungarian, Vietnamese, Modern Hebrew, Norwegian, Persian, Arabic (Written) | Message 38 of 74 05 January 2012 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | ||
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I just saw that Benny Lewis on his Fluent in 3 months site is now living in Taipei and is going to attempt to become
fluent in Spoken and Written Mandarin in 3 months. Game on Benny!!!! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5636 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 39 of 74 06 January 2012 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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Keep up the good work!
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| liddytime Pentaglot Senior Member United States mainlymagyar.wordpre Joined 6232 days ago 693 posts - 1328 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Galician Studies: Hungarian, Vietnamese, Modern Hebrew, Norwegian, Persian, Arabic (Written) | Message 40 of 74 10 January 2012 at 6:05am | IP Logged | ||
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I must admit that I am a huge fan and live vicariously through Benny Lewis. For those of you not familiar with Benny he travels the world on language “missions” and attempts to become “fluent” in a language in 3 months or less! see: http://www.fluentin3months.com/mandarin-mission & nbsp; The crazy thing is that, for the most part, he does it! He has become fluent using his somewhat unorthodox methods in, I believe, 9 languages ! ( and conversational in at least 6 others in his 2 month “mini-missions”!) Benny has grabbed my attention once again because his latest mission has him in Taipei, Taiwan attempting to become fluent in spoken AND written Mandarin Chinese in three months. This also takes into account that he will learn the “traditional” Chinese characters which are considered more difficult to learn. My first reaction to this was “whoa this will be impossible for him” ! This is a language that takes our top diplomats and linguists YEARS to master. (see my previous post ) How on earth is he going to do it this time? After all, he is starting in Taiwan with NO knowledge of Mandarin aside from “Ni Hao”. I reckon he will do it the same way he does it every time; by using his “hacks” as he calls them. This is his method in a nutshell: Arrive in a country and start using the language immediately. No English allowed (with the exception of securing a flat to rent out although I’ve seen him do this without English as well!) Get outside and talk to people. The way he picks up vocabulary is by picking up words from the context of each situation and then apply it immediately. He also uses gesturing and dictionaries but is strict about NO English! He is a very social guy and goes to work immediately by making friends and using only his target language with them. He even changes all the display data in his electronic devices to his target language ( Benny , I’d like to see you try this with Chinese!) . After three months of complete and total immersion he picks up an impressive amount of competency in his target languages. Many “experts” feel the need to debate with him on end whether or not it is truly “fluency”, but either way it is very impressive and from what I’ve seen “fluent enough”. Plus, as Benny says “haters gonna hate...” So true... So it will be interesting to see how he does with this one. People have doubted him before but I have seen him do some pretty impressive things; including hold a free, completely unscripted conversation in Hungarian ( considered to be among the most difficult European languages) after studying it for only two months! He is striving to reach a Common European Framework of Reference for Languages ( abbreviated as CEFR, is a guideline used to describe achievements of learners of foreign languages across Europe) level C1. CEFR defines this as : “ Can understand a wide range of demanding, longer texts, and recognise implicit meaning. Can express him/herself fluently and spontaneously without much obvious searching for expressions. Can use language flexibly and effectively for social, academic and professionalpurposes. Can produce clear, well-structured, detailed text on complex subjects, showing controlled use of organisational patterns, connectors and cohesive devices.” I think this will be incredibly challenging in merely three months of immersion. Now if he were to define his goal as CEFR level B1: “Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc. Can deal with most situations likely to arise whilst travelling in an area where the language is spoken. Can produce simple connected text on topics which are familiar or of personal interest. Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes & ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans.” I think the B1 is definitely doable! We shall see. I really hope he does achieve his C1 goal. It is a great reminder that we all can achieve some pretty incredible things if we put our minds and efforts into it! As for my Mandarin this week... We went down to our local tea shop the other day. ( J-Tea in Eugene, Oregon. http://jteainternational.com/ Not only a great place to sip a cup, but the owner, Josh, is great fun and incredibly knowledgeable about tea! If passing through Eugene, you must stop here!) Josh lived in Taiwan off and on for ten years and is fluent in Mandarin. I started out by asking him if he was the guy that spoke Chinese. (In Mandarin of course: 你說中文的人 嗎？/ Nǐ shi shuō zhōngwén de rén ma?) He answered in a rapid-fire succession of tones and taught syllables that were totally incomprehensible to me. I said to slow down because I have only been studying a month! (你說 話太快. 我只學習了一個月 / Nǐ shuō de tài kuài le. Wǒ zhǐ xuéxí le yīgè yuè!) He gave me a suspicious look and called me a liar in Chinese ( dang! I forgot the word for liar already!) and slowed it down a bit. Holy heaters!! I could understand him! We had a great, if not VERY basic chat over our Lapsong Souchong. I learned the name “Lapsong Souchong” is actually Cantonese. The Mandarin name for the tea is ( 正山小种 - zhèngshān xiǎozhǒng) . It means something like: “straight mountain, small type”. He also told me my Mandarin name : 利迪，布莱恩 / Lì-dí, Bù-lái'-ēn. But, most importantly, I learned my first of Mandarin’s likely many booby-traps. I referred to a di-di, which EVERY introductory Mandarin textbooak gives as the word for “little brother”. Apparently nowadays it has come to mean, well, one’s own “little brother” , or “penis”! Since di-di is now considered somewhat vulgar there is another word that is now used for the relative “little brother”, but of course I forgot that one too... He made me really want to go to Taiwan which seems like China in a microcosm. Much of the good, less of the bad and a much more manageable size than mainland China. We were passing through a town the other night when we decided to stop for some food and ended up in what turned out to be a Taiwanese cafe. The food was amazing and we were the only non-Chinese speakers in the place. Usually when I hear Chinese spoken in a Chinese restaurant, it is either Cantonese or Fujian and I can’t understand a word. This time everyone was speaking Mandarin! While I couldn’t make out too much of the conversations I was shamelessly eavesdropping on, I undoubtedly understood words and short sentences from the clientele. Hearing a dozen people simultaneously speaking Mandarin was like crashing a party and finding a dozen old friends there. It was so invigorating to hear this when up to this point I have only heard the language from decades-old, popping tape recordings. I was going to strike up some conversations, but this time, I was so content just to sit back and listen! Progress: Pimsleur II Lesson 3 Remembering the Hanzi Lesson 4 FSI : Module 2 Unit 7 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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